8 Jun
2012
8 Jun
'12
11:41 a.m.
Lin,
You are definitely right. I am definitely aware of this fact but it has
not come up naturally in the discussion until now. My home base is
Sweden. Close to Stockholm International Airport, Arlanda. You can see
my home base iGate (sa0bxi-6) at aprs.fi. I have the same challenges
that you describe here and it is more or less the same in all mature
markets.
I do not claim that your first strategy should be to pull your own fiber
in areas where there is already enough fiber available. On mature
markets, it is sometimes possible to approach infrastructure owners from
a non-commercial angle to get access to redundant resources, if you have
a convincing case, for "time-limited" demonstrations or operations.
This is why I have access to a dark fiber pair between Stockholm and
Ventspils in Latvia. In 2003 we got a one year grant from the
infrastructure owners of a then newly deployed submarine fiber cable
between Stockholm and Ventspils in Latvia, a free dark fiber pair for a
student project to demonstrate feasibility of the establishment of a 1GE
link over close to 400 km in two hops below 30kEUR. In 2003 this was big
news. We selected the fiber pair with the highest attenuation assuming
that it would be redundant over a longer eriod. It is still commercially
redundant, and we can still use it for non-commercial research and
education purposes.
I saw Ralph saying something similar in a message that popped up here at
the same time as yours, from his producer perspective.
So if AMPRNet can formulate a model for sponsoring of infrastructure,
that would be great.
I am still convinced, however, that the 44/8 addresses should be under
ham control, separate from commercial associations that could jeopardise
the conception of how it is used.
Bjoorn
.
On 06/08/2012 05:56 PM, Lin Holcomb wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
I think one thing you are forgeting that may not be such an issue in
3rd world countries. Property easements and rental costs on poles. I
dont know about where you are but the telcos and the power companies
are not going to just give away rights to drop fiber in the ground or
on the poles. I think Ralph can answer the exact price per pole in
the Atlanta area but it is VERY high.
Lin
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Bjorn Pehrson <bpehrson(a)kth.se
<mailto:bpehrson@kth.se>> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
Hi Don,
More comments inline below.
On 06/08/2012 03:36 PM, Don Fanning wrote:
No, I would definitely not decline, I would be happy to
accept, as long as it is free for non-commercial use.
So here is the flaw in your logic. These educational and
scientific organizations are not in the business of maintaining
physical circuits. That is left to the Level3's, Vodafone's and
Cogent's of the world. Each of these organizations lease
circuits and dark fiber from them. None of them have laid a
single piece of cable from one country to another (with perhaps
the exception being CERN). They are in the business of Science!
Not telecommunications. At some point you are left with peering
on a commercial network broadcasting your routes.
Either I am unclear or
you haven't got it. I would accept free
transit from anyone, but I wouldnt trust anyone else than hams
with 44/8 addresses, not even research and education networks.
Free transit does not involve ham resources.
The fiber optic cable that you use to connect your server to your
storage area network is not the same that goes into the ground or
in the air or under the ocean. Each of those applications use
different cable that is much more expensive.
Actually the fiber I am
referring to can be used both underground,
with or without a duct (if you have no termites eating them) and
in the air (preferably above power lines to protect them from
people believing it is copper inside). Submarine cables are a bit
more expensive, but over distances where you can avoid active
amplifiers (festoon solutions) less than ten times more.
Transatantic is about 30 times more, typically 1 USD/inch.
Your analogy of using staff/students to string 16km (9 miles) of
fiber while interesting and laudable doesn't apply. We're
talking about 1000's of km of long haul DWDM fiber optics and the
equipment to boost the signal at regular distances. Depending on
where you are running it, you have to have equipment to run it
through km's of conduit or across oceans where you have to deal
with dragnetters.
Yes, the next phase being discussed in Somalia is to
interconnect
the metropolitan area links. Garowe - Mogadishu is some 2500 km
and few intermediate stops. The idea is to include a free fiber
pair for research and education, and why not ham activities. The
main challenge is not funding but what trustworthy consortium can
be formed to own it. There is an economical tradeoff between
deploying more fiber and use cwdm/dwdm when there is not enough
fiber. cwdm is cheap.
If multi-million dollar corporations and
cities are having a hard
time implementing it, what makes you think a group of blowhards
wearing plastic antennas can do it better?
Well, it is often easier to do things that are guaranteed not ever
to become commercial than things that definitely are commercial
since everyone wants a piece of the pie. The main roles of
regulators include to collect tax from the market and support
public good aspects. The groups fall in different categories.
While I completely understand your position and agree with it in
some aspect, the fact is that 44net itself is not a space
regulated by the IARU and other than whatever your country
applies to free speech, is not bound to keeping with
non-commercial/non-business rules. It is a allotment of public
network address space. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I am certainly aware
of that 44net is not regulated by IARU, but
by ICANN and that IANA and regional registries may be watching us.
I am under the impression, correct me if I am wrong, that the
rules applying to 44net are very unclear since the allocation is
unique and that it might be better to show good conduct rather
than ask or misbehave.
Has anyone asked what rules apply and what was in that case the
answer?
/Bjorn
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