On 7/24/13 6:28 PM, Neil Johnson wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> I like drawings.
>
> Is this what I gather the concept is ?
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11681146/AMPRnet_Concept_V01.pdf
>
can you post the visio file? I'd like to revise a couple things.
be aware, there is a little man that pops out of a router and punches you in
the jaw if you type "router rip" ;)
--
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice
727-214-2508 - Fax
http://bryanfields.net
I guess it will kind of boil down to applications. And a way to
advertise them to everyone else who has access to the network.
Here are some random ideas
Make a mirror of mods.dk or something like it, are their any unlimited
mod sites? As far as I know you can only lookup one per day.
How about a part-number datasheet lookup service? Or periodical lookup.
Or hosting services for ham software development projects.
For a good place to start how about someone setup a listserver on the
amprnet, perhaps "ampr-services"?
It would probably be a good idea if there was a way for the HSMM nodes
to have a way to tunnel to other remote nodes. Maybe touch base with
the firmware developers?
My thoughts.
The IPIP / JNOS network is an anachronism that is quant but doesn't
take advantage of how technology has evolved. I'm a pretty skilled
network guy but the current IPIP tunnel system has eluded me. I have
gotten close, but finally thrown my hands up each time. (I never get
the rip44d to run and find the proper password.)
However, I can get a VPN tunnel running in short order which can bring
an address range to whatever location is on the full Internet. I have
a personal class-C at home that has functioned over a VPN for over a
year and I have VPN'ed to another Net-44 gateway with success. (In
both cases on inexpensive MikroTik routers.)
I think we need to work on connectivity of the gateways to unify
Net-44 and treat the "on air" connectivity as a separate task.
Whether the on air connectivity is for IP over AX.25 at 1200 bps,
WiFi/HSMM, D-STAR Digital Data, or some new transport over RF. It
doesn't do a lot of good to have islands of on air activity without
interconnectivity of Net-44. Otherwise just use RFC 1918 address
space and NAT it to the Internet.
My vision is that we have multiple BGP gateways on the Internet. Some
may advertise the whole of 44/8 and others may have smaller networks,
clear down to 44.x.x.x/24 Some will be multi-homed, some will not, but
all would be advertised to the Internet for routing. Any router
advertising all of 44/8 would need to know about all routes for
anything with a CIDR of less than /8. I don't think we really want
all traffic to go to 1 or 2 routers advertising 44/8 or we're back to
the everything must go through UCSD scenario of the last couple of
decades.
My recommendation is to find ISPs who are willing to 'donate'
bandwidth and routing for some number of BGP'ed networks, then place
routers at those ISPs which will support authenticated VPN service to
local networks.
Say we had an ISP (or University, etc.) that would donate bandwidth
for 44.24.0.0/16 and 44.12.0.0/16,44.26.0.0/16, and 44.40.0.0/16 and
BGP advertise those ranges. Let's another data center wanted to BGP
44.24.100.0/24. Traffic would flow to the best gateway for each. If
44.24.10.0/24 didn't have the ability to BGP its own address space, it
could VPN to the router at the major gateway (ISP) and that router
would tunnel traffic for that network to the gateway for
44.24.10.0/24. Then there might be a small on the air network at
44.24.128.0/28 and its gateway would VPN to the 44.24.10.0/24 router
who would route traffic for the small network.
This would mean that no special tables need to be passed around. Each
router would know the addresses it was responsible for and would route
all other 44 traffic to its "upstream" and non-44 network traffic to
the Internet through their service provider.
This means the "heavy lifting" of BGP and network routing would be
handled by those ISPs where the expertise exists and a new member of
Net-44 could simply setup a simple router that VPN'ed to an upstream
router to get its traffic and to send Net-44 traffic, all other
traffic would simply pass over local service provider's network.
This is all readily available, off the shelf, technology. For the end
user it is very inexpensive to setup a router with VPN. Then the
local distribution over RF can happen over whatever technology is
available, whether a TNC and FM radio, WiFi dongle, UDR56k-4, Bullet,
etc.
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On 7/24/13 1:02 PM, Neil Johnson wrote:
> I'm a network engineer at another University in the midwest US and I
> *might* be able to convince our routing guru to let us be a BGP peer and I
> could setup another tunnel end point box.
>
> I would need explicit details on how this would work and a the potential
> risks and plans for their mitigation before I approach him.
>
> We don't have earthquakes, just tornados and floods :-)
>
> No promises however.
We have really two networks here. The internal 44-net and the external
internet facing net.
I'd propose to have a few points around the globe where we can peer the whole
44 internet facing net. Each of these locations would announce 44/8 and more
specific routes for what's close to them.
Behind this in the 44-net internal the gateway routers would be meshed over
GRE tunnels running an IGP (IS-IS). There of course would need to be IBGP
sessions between all the BGP speakers, but this would allow end user networks
to tunnel to a given 44/net router, and not need to keep a full route table of
the 44-net internal space. (I hate end stations needing to do routing, that's
why we have routers!)
This would provide full access to the 44/net from outside, easy access from
the AMPR users, and full visibility between directly routed netblocks and the
rest of 44-net with out having to maintain a full mesh.
I'd imagine the more specific announcements from the peering points would be
statically configured, but there is a way to do a limited redistribution from
the IGP into the BGP. I think it would be easier to do it manually (and more
stable), but given some time in the lab at work I could get this going.
Thoughts?
--
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice
727-214-2508 - Fax
http://bryanfields.net
On 7/24/13 6:15 PM, Marc, LX1DUC wrote:
> (BTW IS-IS probably wouldn't work that well over Layer3 tunnels AFAIK,
> as it is itself a Layer3 protocol and would need to be transported
> over a Layer2 link (please correct me if I'm wrong))
IS-IS will work fine over GRE. GRE forms an interface over which IP/CLNS can
function. Multicast and broadcast traffic works over this as well.
--
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice
727-214-2508 - Fax
http://bryanfields.net
My thoughts.
The IPIP / JNOS network is an anachronism that is quant but doesn't take
advantage of how technology has evolved. I'm a pretty skilled network guy
but the current IPIP tunnel system has eluded me. I have gotten close, but
finally thrown my hands up each time. (I never get the rip44d to run and
find the proper password.)
However, I can get a VPN tunnel running in short order which can bring an
address range to whatever location is on the full Internet. I have a
personal class-C at home that has functioned over a VPN for over a year and
I have VPN'ed to another Net-44 gateway with success. (In both cases on
inexpensive MikroTik routers.)
I think we need to work on connectivity of the gateways to unify Net-44 and
treat the "on air" connectivity as a separate task. Whether the on air
connectivity is for IP over AX.25 at 1200 bps, WiFi/HSMM, D-STAR Digital
Data, or some new transport over RF. It doesn't do a lot of good to have
islands of on air activity without interconnectivity of Net-44. Otherwise
just use RFC 1918 address space and NAT it to the Internet.
My vision is that we have multiple BGP gateways on the Internet. Some may
advertise the whole of 44/8 and others may have smaller networks, clear
down to 44.x.x.x/24 Some will be multi-homed, some will not, but all would
be advertised to the Internet for routing. Any router advertising all of
44/8 would need to know about all routes for anything with a CIDR of less
than /8. I don't think we really want all traffic to go to 1 or 2 routers
advertising 44/8 or we're back to the everything must go through UCSD
scenario of the last couple of decades.
My recommendation is to find ISPs who are willing to 'donate' bandwidth and
routing for some number of BGP'ed networks, then place routers at those
ISPs which will support authenticated VPN service to local networks.
Say we had an ISP (or University, etc.) that would donate bandwidth for
44.24.0.0/16 and 44.12.0.0/16,44.26.0.0/16, and 44.40.0.0/16 and BGP
advertise those ranges. Let's another data center wanted to BGP
44.24.100.0/24. Traffic would flow to the best gateway for each. If
44.24.10.0/24 didn't have the ability to BGP its own address space, it
could VPN to the router at the major gateway (ISP) and that router would
tunnel traffic for that network to the gateway for 44.24.10.0/24. Then
there might be a small on the air network at 44.24.128.0/28 and its gateway
would VPN to the 44.24.10.0/24 router who would route traffic for the small
network.
This would mean that no special tables need to be passed around. Each
router would know the addresses it was responsible for and would route all
other 44 traffic to its "upstream" and non-44 network traffic to the
Internet through their service provider.
This means the "heavy lifting" of BGP and network routing would be handled
by those ISPs where the expertise exists and a new member of Net-44 could
simply setup a simple router that VPN'ed to an upstream router to get its
traffic and to send Net-44 traffic, all other traffic would simply pass
over local service provider's network.
This is all readily available, off the shelf, technology. For the end user
it is very inexpensive to setup a router with VPN. Then the local
distribution over RF can happen over whatever technology is available,
whether a TNC and FM radio, WiFi dongle, UDR56k-4, Bullet, etc.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
My thoughts.
The IPIP / JNOS network is an anachronism that is quant but doesn't take
advantage of how technology has evolved. I'm a pretty skilled network guy
but the current IPIP tunnel system has eluded me. I have gotten close, but
finally thrown my hands up each time. (I never get the rip44d to run and
find the proper password.)
However, I can get a VPN tunnel running in short order which can bring an
address range to whatever location is on the full Internet. I have a
personal class-C at home that has functioned over a VPN for over a year and
I have VPN'ed to another Net-44 gateway with success. (In both cases on
inexpensive MikroTik routers.)
I think we need to work on connectivity of the gateways to unify Net-44 and
treat the "on air" connectivity as a separate task. Whether the on air
connectivity is for IP over AX.25 at 1200 bps, WiFi/HSMM, D-STAR Digital
Data, or some new transport over RF. It doesn't do a lot of good to have
islands of on air activity without interconnectivity of Net-44. Otherwise
just use RFC 1918 address space and NAT it to the Internet.
My vision is that we have multiple BGP gateways on the Internet. Some may
advertise the whole of 44/8 and others may have smaller networks, clear
down to 44.x.x.x/24 Some will be multi-homed, some will not, but all would
be advertised to the Internet for routing. Any router advertising all of
44/8 would need to know about all routes for anything with a CIDR of less
than /8. I don't think we really want all traffic to go to 1 or 2 routers
advertising 44/8 or we're back to the everything must go through UCSD
scenario of the last couple of decades.
My recommendation is to find ISPs who are willing to 'donate' bandwidth and
routing for some number of BGP'ed networks, then place routers at those
ISPs which will support authenticated VPN service to local networks.
Say we had an ISP (or University, etc.) that would donate bandwidth for
44.24.0.0/16 and 44.12.0.0/16, 44.26.0.0/16, and 44.40.0.0/16 and BGP
advertise those ranges. Let's another data center wanted to BGP
44.24.100.0/24. Traffic would flow to the best gateway for each. If
44.24.10.0/24 didn't have the ability to BGP its own address space, it
could VPN to the router at the major gateway (ISP) and that router would
tunnel traffic for that network to the gateway for 44.24.10.0/24. Then
there might be a small on the air network at 44.24.128.0/28 and its gateway
would VPN to the 44.24.10.0/24 router who would route traffic for the small
network.
This would mean that no special tables need to be passed around. Each
router would know the addresses it was responsible for and would route all
other 44 traffic to its "upstream" and non-44 network traffic to the
Internet through their service provider.
This means the "heavy lifting" of BGP and network routing would be handled
by those ISPs where the expertise exists and a new member of Net-44 could
simply setup a simple router that VPN'ed to an upstream router to get its
traffic and to send Net-44 traffic, all other traffic would simply pass
over local service provider's network.
This is all readily available, off the shelf, technology. For the end user
it is very inexpensive to setup a router with VPN. Then the local
distribution over RF can happen over whatever technology is available,
whether a TNC and FM radio, WiFi dongle, UDR56k-4, Bullet, etc.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
On 7/24/13 5:19 PM, Brian Kantor wrote:
> Yes, I'd like to see more people working on networking over the air
> using amateur radio.
>
> Otherwise we're just another branch of the Internet and there's nothing
> new or exciting about that.
+1,
I'm doing some hacking on getting some gear into the 5 ghz ham band, and
removing power limits. It would be point to point or point to multipoint
directly into Ethernet. You can find the used units for 200-300 dollars, so
a complete 100mbit/s link would be 400 dollars or so.
--
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice
727-214-2508 - Fax
http://bryanfields.net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Dear YLs and OMs,
I would like to restart the discussion about a decentralized BGP setup
for the 44net. I have thought about some kind of trial to test several
aspects of a non-central gateway approach.
So far I have come up with a few "challenges" for the trial.
- - AS Number (I can provide one for the trial, we may decide later on
what to do if and when this project goes to production)
- - IP Network (for the trial the test range 44.128.0.0/16 might be a
suitable candidate)
- - BGP Peers providing BGP session, bandwidth and a static IP address
for the trial (I can provide one peer in LX)
- - Inter-Gateway Tunnel setup (which protocol should we use? How do we
cope with lowered MTU and filtered ICMP Packet-to-big messages?)
- - Downstream tunnels (What kind of tunnel technology/protocols are we
offering? Can a subnet have upstream tunnels to several gateways?)
- - iBGP setup (How do we handle gateways with different available
upstream bandwidth? How do we redistribute routes for connected subnets?)
- - Packet filtering (Will we be using the current model of RDNS
activates access to/from the Internet? RDNS could be useful even for
hosts that shouldn't have access to/from the Internet, eventually
access to/from the Internet should be decoupled from RDNS.)
- - Test scenarios, how are we going to test different situations?
- - probably much more issues to handle (I haven't thought about the
details as long as the basics haven't been discussed)
What are your thoughts and who is willing (and able) to help with the
trial (as a gateway and/or a subnet tunnel server)?
73 de Marc, LX1DUC
- --
http://lx1duc.mcs.tel
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