Brian and All,
I always thought it was a waste of a routable /8 to not have it routed
on the Internet, otherwise why are people just not using IANA space instead?
However, if it is to be routed on the internet I think some ground rules must
be established of what is and is not acceptable and penalties for not following
the rules and established guidelines.
Additionally, and I bring this up again, a RWHOIS server should/must be
used (tied in with ARIN on the 44/8 allocation) so that people can query
specific address space that will return the contact/owner of whatever space is
being advertised for whatever reason. Additionally, IRR entries should also be
required for anyone wanting to advertise space via BGP. Those should be some
common sence polices that need to be followed at the very minimum.
Obviously nothing smaller then a /24 should be advertised on the
internet as most Tier 1 carriers will block any address space that is smaller
in their BGP configs. I don't know what the whole breakup of space looks like
within each coordinator's /16 space (for those that have a /16 of space), but I
would think there surely is space in each that could be a usable /24 or larger
that could be utilized for that. Alternatively there seems to be a lot of space
at the upper end of the 44 block that could be used for internet routed blocks
if we wanted to use that first?
IP Space justification will be whole issue within it's self as well,
because if you only REALLY need /28 or /27 of IP's, one will still need to
advertise a /24. Perhaps who ever advertises space via BGP should accept the
condition that if only a portion of the advertise space is being used that you
will accept and allow another person needing the available space so that it's
not wasted. This could be tracked and allocated via the rwhois server in
conjunction with entries in IRR.
UCSD can still advertise the 44/8, and of course if anyone advertises a
more specific route, that will be preferred of the larger aggregate.
Be nice if we were all on a IRC chat channel to bounce ideas around? If
anyone is interested, how about channel #44net on IRC server network freenode
(irc.freenode.net). I'm on there now.
Tim Osburn
www.osburn.com
206.812.6214
W7RSZ
On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Brian Kantor wrote:
> Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:14:57 -0800
> From: Brian Kantor <Brian(a)ucsd.edu>
> Reply-To: AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
> To: 44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
> Subject: [44net] directly routed subnets
>
> I've gotten several requests for directly routed subnets (ie, BGP announced
> CIDR blocks as subnets of 44/8, not tunneled) for ham radio use. These are
> people who want to set up HSMM networks in the ham bands, D-Star
> constellations, etc.
>
> I thought I'd ask folks what they think of the idea of setting aside part of
> the address space for that purpose?
>
> What issues do you see arising from doing so?
> - Brian
> _________________________________________
> 44Net mailing list
> 44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
> http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
>
Hey Guys
We have a surplus of cisco routers with dsl wics due to an upgrade.
We have put DSL into a few of our repeater locations and want to put packet
(before the 12/13 storm season)
I am looking for a config that will do the ip tunnel encap for 44 net.
If you have done it please email me vk4fq(a)smellyblackdog.com.au with
destructions please
Samantha
vk4fq/vk4ttt
Re-send
Sent from my PDP-11
Begin forwarded message:
> From: "C.J. Adams-Collier" <cjac(a)colliertech.org>
> Date: June 1, 2012 11:57:13 AM PDT
> To: 44Net(a)cows.net
> Subject: Re: [44Net] AMPRnet node/gateway in a box
>
> Give me your fedex account number and I'll have them shipped COD. Would you like me to put squeeze on a 512M flash and send along a 150G spinny disk for larger data? It's a 1U chassis:
>
> http://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=1165
>
> There are about 20 left. Get them while they're hot.
>
> There's one serial console (RJ-45) exposed on the front panel. There's a header on the mobo that I could stick a secondary serial jack (DB9) onto and run it to the back panel.
>
> I'm on freenode as 'cj' and efnet as 'cjac'. I'll be working on getting these deployed to you next week.
>
> 73,
>
> KF7BMP
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Eric Fort <eric.fort(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been thinking that a single box with:
>
> 3 (or more) ethernet ports
> 1 serial port (emergency console)
> a couple USB ports (for USB hub, USB serial ports, USB disk, Etc.)
> 1-2 SD Card slot(s)
>
> that could be easily configured by menu or web interface and acted as a plug and play node/gateway for those wanting to join and contribute to AMPRNET would be a good thing. Hardware wise USB serial adapters could run legacy hardware such as TNC's, modems, and even do such functions as rotor control and radio tuning for sat links, etc. Ethernet would connect the box to the local subnet(s) and the internet. Ideally one could plug a TCP/IP host or network in one port ( the local net... generally a PC or Mac but it really wouldnt matter), The Internet on the second port, and the local AMPRNET RF WiLAN on the 3rd port. AX.25/ROSE/NetRom/etc connectivity could be handled over USB serial to a KISS TNC.
>
> Now, if such a box appeared for sale at the local amateur radio candy store or elsewhere what does it need on board as far as software and protocol support? What does it need to do and what additional optional tasks would be desirable for it to do? what should it NOT do?
>
> I can think of the following:
>
> Routing:
> IPv4/IPv6 native
>
> RIPv2
> OSPF
> (IS-IS)
> legacy AX.25 support
>
> Tunneling:
> GRE
> IPIP
> (ssh - the binaries will likely be there anyway for other uses)
> (netcat - not the usual choice but handy at times)
>
> Services: (should these run on this box or a seperate box connected to the LAN)
>
> HTTPS - needed for config
> ssh/scp - needed for config
> DHCP/BOOTP - for configuring other clients
>
> SMTP, FTP, DNS, IRC/converse,BBS, SIP, etc servers - should these run on said box or be on another box on the LAN? What services should run where?
>
>
> Anything else such a box should do to provide easy AMPRNET connectivity and participation? Please contribute your ideas, I'm thinking of doing this as a project.
>
> Eric
> AF6EP
>
>
>
>
> I am still in the holding pattern while ya'll work out things, but I share
> Ralphs frustration. I see tunneling as a project that uses 44net not the
> whole 44net project. It seems to me that this has been confused by many
> and sent the 44net down one road. We need some highways and not 2 lane
> dirt roads, sorry but 1200baud or even 9600 baud is a two land dirt road
> compaired to 10-300 meg connections I can offer I spoke to several groups
> at Dayton and there are many others who would love to have use of the IP
> addresses Dstar, highspeed packet ect. (not tunneling all thru UCSD)
>
> The inability to have routeabil addresses from the net back to the
> 44net( or the lack of desire do to the slow speeds) raises this question
> how is it that the current tunneling network would be different if the
> 44.x.x.x was replaced with a 10.x.x.x and the route point at UCSD was a
> 44.x.x.x ? Really what advantage does a non-routabile 44 have over a 10
> with the way you are currently using the network?
>
> From perspective I see no difference....If I cant see a difference
> why would ICANN? Folks this is 1/255 off all of the ipv4 addresses in the
> world we are talking about. This is like 220 in the 80s use it or loose
> it.
>
>
Lin
Well Brian. You have fun. Take my name and email off the site and remove me from the list. I don't agee with what you are doing and i really do not care anymore.. Use it or loose it. Keep your Kingdom.
K4RJJ Ronny
Sent from a cheap lil Android Tablet
Brian Kantor <Brian(a)ucsd.edu> wrote:
>(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
>_______________________________________________
>On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 11:19:34PM +0200, Bjorn Pehrson wrote:
>> Any progress towards an AMPRNet AS, an acceptable use policy that
>> not-for-profit research and education networks would accept for
>> peering and a fair delegation rulebook with both rights, obligations
>> and sanctions that prevents delegated addresses to be not used or
>> misused?
>
>As has been discussed at length on this mailing list, there are
>things that have to be done before we can start delegating subnets.
>
>What is going on is that we (our nonprofit) is attempting to get
>organized. That means getting the legal documents handled, setting
>up an advisory committee, work out an agreement with ARIN regarding
>our delegation policies, writing an acceptable use policy and subnet
>delegation contract, establishing procedures to evaluate delegation
>requests, and figure out some way to fund all of this.
>
>To get an ASN we will need to negotiate with ARIN regarding their
>standard AS contract; it appears to require those applying for an ASN to
>relinquish a significant amount of autonomy, an amount that I believe is
>incompatable with the way we wish to continue to operate network 44.
>
>Note also that an ASN costs $500 plus an annual maintenance fee.
>The nonprofit is already about $1k in the hole, financed entirely by me.
>We have no source of funds; everything is being done by volunteers
>including a significant amount of pro-bono work by a networking-policy-savvy
>attorney who has kindly volunteered her time even though she is not
>a ham radio licensee (yet).
>
>I'd really like to continue to do this all for free to hams if we can.
>
>We're also working on a web-based replacement for the mail robots that handle
>DNS and subnet/gateway matters.
>
>We need to set up an rwhois server to advise of the delegations. This is
>an ARIN requirement and good network citizenship. It should be integrated
>with the web system.
>
>So we've not been idle; things are slowly moving forward.
>
>We *will* be delegating subnets when the necessaries are in place. Sorry it's
>taking so long. Anyone want to help?
> - Brian
>
>PS: perhaps I misunderstand Internet peering, but I don't see any
>need to get an ASN before delegating subnets. It might be convenient
>but I don't think it's a prerequisite. Perhaps someone knowledgeable
>could comment on this.
>_________________________________________
>44Net mailing list
>44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
>http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
Tim & anyone else
I'm also at Nanog and if anyone else is please speak up, lets get
together and have a short meeting!
Tim Osburn
www.osburn.com
206.812.6214
W7RSZ
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012, Tim Pozar wrote:
> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:20:25 -0700
> From: Tim Pozar <pozar(a)lns.com>
> Reply-To: AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
> To: AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [44net] 44net is not just for tunneling
>
> BTW… I am here at NANOG and representatives are here from ARIN (John Curran,
> David Huberman, Mark Kosters, Carrie Marino, Leslie Nobile). I would be
> happy to chat with them if needed.
*Disclosure* - I am affiliated with NW Digital Radio, but my comments here
concerning features, design decisions, product direction, availability,
price, or delivery are not guarantees, announcements, or binding upon the
company unless specifically stated as such.
Someone brought up the UDR56K-4 radio announced at Dayton Hamvention® a
couple of weeks ago. So let me list some parameters and answer a couple of
questions:
- The model announced is specified as a half duplex radio, running 25W
on 70cm band.
- It has an integrated computer running a standard Linux server (Debian
Squeeze) with additional drivers specific to the radio.
- The software platform is open source and developers are free to create
their own protocols and applications
- Additional hardware and options can be added via USB or 10/100
Ethernet.
- There will be a daughter card option to hold a vocoder (AMBE family
card will be available from NW Digital Radio)
- AX.25 and D-STAR network stacks are under development and test,
supporting applications that use those network stacks.
- Modulation choices include GMSK, FSK, 4FSK, and possibly one or two
additional choices. The modulation is performed in a high integration RF IC
which talks through a bus directly at digital logic levels (no
analog/base-band layer)
- The RF IC can accept up to 100 Kbps with bandwidth profiles based on
modulation choice. The US regulations limit operation to 56 Kbaud and 100
KHz bandwidth. Higher bit rates that meet those requirements can be
supported up to the 100 Kbps rate. The developer/operator is responsible
for insuring data rate / modulation choice meet the regulations where the
radio is deployed.
Having addressed the basics relative to the radio. The idea is to have a
platform to support multiple applications including AMPRnet. There is an
interest in other common air interface (CAI) protocols for passing various
data including Net-44 packets, we have at least one 3rd party developer who
wants to add a low-overhead IP transport to the radio.
Yahoo! Forum for discussions relative to the UDR are at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UniversalDigitalRadio
One thing to remember is that for a given power one must choose between
distance, reliability, and speed. For example, using 4FSK it may be
possible to push the raw bit rate above 80 Kbps within 100 KHz, however it
might be worth using a forward error correcting code reducing the effective
rate back to 56 Kbps while reducing retries on a given path due to bit
errors.
I think that Net44 as a replacement for broadband service is not a goal
that we should be seeking. In the wireless space there are plenty of
consumer devices (Part 15 in the US) that can provide high-speed/local
service, e.g. WiFi, or even point-to-point links on some paths.
There are a lot of applications where repurposing consumer devices makes
sense, e.g. HSMM on amateur bands, or very local mesh networks in urban
areas. Conversely, there are many applications where longer haul, higher
power, modest data rate service is a better choice and this is where
Amateur Radio can fill a need.
I agree we should work to multi-home Net-44 to the rest of the Internet,
but I don't believe we should do this on a LAN level. I think at most it
should be the 256 /16 subnets and probably many fewer than that. Local
LANs can tunnel using newer tunneling protocols that can use a dynamic IP
on at least one end of the tunnel to these BGP'ed routers (with fail-over
between them for tunnels from LANs). There is no reason to use
roll-your-own routers or protocols -- there are very capable routers with
tunneling in the US$60 range that can get the connection over the Internet
tunnel to the local LAN, then use our various RF interfaces (WiFi/HSMM,
AX.25, DSTAR, ...) out to individual nodes. A did a presentation on this
subject earlier this spring --
http://www.microhams.com/digitalconf2012/K7VE_N7IPB_RebootNET44.pdf
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
Lin why don't you ake the lead fo Ga? Simply volunteer and I won't oppose. K4RJJ Ronny
Sent from a cheap lil Android Tablet
Lin Holcomb <lin(a)n4yci.com> wrote:
>(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
>_______________________________________________
>>
>> I am still in the holding pattern while ya'll work out things, but I share
>> Ralphs frustration. I see tunneling as a project that uses 44net not the
>> whole 44net project. It seems to me that this has been confused by many
>> and sent the 44net down one road. We need some highways and not 2 lane
>> dirt roads, sorry but 1200baud or even 9600 baud is a two land dirt road
>> compaired to 10-300 meg connections I can offer I spoke to several groups
>> at Dayton and there are many others who would love to have use of the IP
>> addresses Dstar, highspeed packet ect. (not tunneling all thru UCSD)
>>
>
>
>> The inability to have routeabil addresses from the net back to the
>> 44net( or the lack of desire do to the slow speeds) raises this question
>> how is it that the current tunneling network would be different if the
>> 44.x.x.x was replaced with a 10.x.x.x and the route point at UCSD was a
>> 44.x.x.x ? Really what advantage does a non-routabile 44 have over a 10
>> with the way you are currently using the network?
>>
>
>
>> From perspective I see no difference....If I cant see a difference
>> why would ICANN? Folks this is 1/255 off all of the ipv4 addresses in the
>> world we are talking about. This is like 220 in the 80s use it or loose
>> it.
>>
>>
>Lin
>
>_________________________________________
>44Net mailing list
>44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
>http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
Hi John,
Thanks for the slides, Is there a video of the presentation available
anywhere I think it'd make some good viewing.
Rebooting the AMPRnet is whats needed, new products like the UDR56k are
a great idea and I'd expect to see some poor mans clones of its
functionality following in time. Thanks to the internet the general
level of data comms knowledge has improved in the last 20 years, and a
resurgence in interest seems to be occurring. Me personally, I've got
internet burnout. :)
As regards to tunnelling, I thought it was policy that to tunnel to /44
you need a static IP I read somewhere. Technically of course it's
possible to tunnel to any accessable IP, I subscribe to a dynamic DNS
service to track my VPN end points for example.
-Cheers Max. G7UOZ.
On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 12:00 -0700, 44net-request(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
wrote:
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 14:41:22 -0700
> From: K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org>
> To: AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
> Subject: Re: [44net] Some newbie guidance.
> Message-ID:
> <CAN77r3xdL9DQv3XFH331PQ+YdBa2MaTu6PBnWq1ehCrvYcdYuA(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Slides from a presentation I gave a couple of months ago
> http://www.microhams.com/digitalconf2012/K7VE_N7IPB_RebootNET44.pdf
>
> Some of the tunneling protocols don't require a fixed IP -- I tunnel a /24
> network from a data center to my home (and also a portable subnet) using
> L2TP.
>
> ------------------------------
> John D. Hays
> K7VE
> PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
> <http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
> <http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
Hi All,
I'm interested in building a tcp packet network for my local town.
Theres no packet activity here, apart from aprs. The local club are
generally focused on competitions, but there is a local hackspace in
it's infancy with a number of people interested in doing 'something
cool' with packet.
So, I've been in touch with the UK ampr co-ordinator, and am now
administering our local /24. Given I have a clean slate what subnetting
approaches have people found that work well, maybe subnets for different
technologies dstar, ip over x25 packet etc. In the UK I understand
there's essentially no routing, but have read about routing being used
in the US, what are the reasons?
I don't currently have a fixed IP, so am currently unable to provide 44
net access to the rest of the world unless I can come up with something
clever, or a fixed IP. Has anyone successfully implemented a workaround,
maybe an ip tunnel from another host with a fixed ip?
If anyone has any documents on any aspects of ampr network design, or
links I'd be very interested in taking a look. I want to get as much
right first time as possible.
-Cheers Max G7UOZ
