On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:08 PM, Don Fanning don@00100100.net wrote:
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@gmail.com wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
It would seem to me that while due to the fact we are tunneling most everything we may have a logical full mesh but far from a physical full mesh. What does a tunneled logical full mesh really accomplish for us other than making things all the more complicated?
Right now it allows small/medium sized islands of amateur packet radio networks to interconnect with others around the planet at speeds faster and more reliable than HF or VHF.
Wouldn't traditional peering and routing done "the normal way" be much easier?
Not really because most networks are point to point (ie: you connect to your work VPN - not you connect to your work VPN which interconnects with every other VPN in the world). This essentially is a hack to backbone a semi-private network on top of the public internet.
If this is, " a hack to backbone a semi-private network on top of the public internet" then why do we need 44/8? Please explain why 10/8 would not work just as well?
Also, most links are point to point and connect various networks, or did I miss something in my networking classes? A host in the IP sense can be viewed as a /32 network though the link it's on generally requires a /30 for everything to work correctly (rfc3021 notwithstanding).
I can see a valid place for nailing up vpn links and various tunnels, i.e. last mile access and tying islands together though something other than IPIP with links negotiated on a peering basis as needed, but what does a full logical mesh of tunnels give us? It seems that since it's built of tunnels and thus virtual rather than physical we just unnecessarily complicate the mess wherein the tunneled traffic and the tunnels themselves end up taking multiple and somewhat changing hops to get from one end to another.
Yup, nothing's perfect.
IP was designed such that I could hand a packet off and basically go, "ok, now it's your problem to deliver it (on a best effort basis)", thus I shouldn't need to know every conceivable route to every conceivable endpoint. What prevents us from using it that way?
Because the internet isn't built that way. You still need a source and destination address. You still need routers able to figure out how to get your packet from point A to point Z via points B,C,Q and V. And your packets need to know how to return back to you through said points. The way the current network works is that it sends a routing table to all participants of all these little islands of "44net" and how they could be reached over the public internet. And mind you, for it to work correctly, the traffic has to be effectively routable back to you without being dropped into a blackhole or routing loops occurring. One can just substitute 44/8 for 10/8 and the same problems are there.
The simplest way of routing a non-routable network is through encapsulation for which IPIP was chosen as it's part of the TCP/IP network protocol. This allows everyone to be part of the network while not having control or bandwidth being focused at any one single location.
again, if it's not going to be routable then why do we need 44/8? use RFC1918 space and give 44/8 back. The easiest way to get things routable is to use a dynamic routing protocol and peer with others using standards based routing protocols and practices. That involves using working with others to peeer with protocols such as OSPF and BGP. We could attract many into this hobby if we'd simply offer to be the teachers of the IP networking craft using standards based methods used by everyone else across the internet.
A significantly harder solution would be to use BGP which is what is used
on the larger internet. But there are many, many reasons why you don't want just anyone manipulating BGP routes. One wrong command and you could send China's internet traffic to Togo. Or create routing loops which would cause large interruptions not only for yourself but for a multitude of other people on the internet.
Yes, I've seen this done both intentionally and unintentionally. sometimes one need be careful about what and who's anouncements are trustworthy. this is where mentoring and good network policy becomes increasingly importaint.
Most residential ISP's will not let you insert 44/8 addresses onto their networks. Even commercial hosting and colocation providers really want to see justification and the proper I's and T's dotted and crossed before they will host a 44/8 subnet for you as it's still not a trivial change. Then there is the problem of encapsulated and non-encapsulated. The few 44/8 subnets that have broken off the UCSD router are able to route across the internet just like anyone else but cannot reach other 44net islands that run the encapsulated tunnels without going back to the encap munge because those other islands either don't know how or are unable to reach them due to upstream providers blackholing 44/8 traffic as nonroutable.
And they should ask for and review that you have all your stuff in order prior to either hosting your netblock within their AS or offering to peer with you. It's then our task as custodians of 44/8 to mentor those who would use that space into being good network engineers and technicians. As far as reachability to and from other 44net islands, i.e. between those using BGP and those not that would seem to be resolvable via individual peering agreements between the respective islands. At the same time I'd think use of BGP wherever possible to route to and from the larger internet and smaller 44net islands ought be encouraged as the norm or again if that is not to be the case then maybe we ought seriously consider 10/8.
One might suggest that we can just create a 44net VPN that we all connect into via PPTP or other means but who pays the hosting bill for that? Bandwidth and hosting still costs money at the end of the day as Netflix found out. And we don't have the advantage of doing commercial "peering" as our networks cannot be used for commercial purposes.
Who pays to put your local repeater on the air and keep it there? Same thing. Also while our over the air ham band networks can not in most cases carry commercial traffic, our internet links most certainly could. the prohibition is against what goes over the air on the ham bands, not what travels over the 44/8 network - at least from a govt. regulatory viewpoint.
That's all I got...
Eric AF6EP