On 28 Jul 2021, at 13:11, Tony Langdon via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
On 28/7/21 8:39 pm, Antonios Chariton (daknob) via 44Net wrote:
Arrrgh, your use of Reply All and not deleting the direct email disabled my Reply List function, it seems. :(
Sorry, I just hit “Reply” now so it won’t happen again.
Thanks, that's better. I have Reply List back. :) I can still reply privately, if I wish (Reply by default on this list replies to the sender, not the list).
I understand that a renumbering is not painless. But at least we are here to help to make it as painless as possible. I wish we could do something better. Germany had to renumber more than 8,000 hosts recently and it’s not something that we want anyone to go through often.
I'm not sure what you can do, because I still have to do all of the leg work. Sure, we can allow long crossover times, but that raises the issue of managing 400-500 IPs, and there's still a number of time critical changeovers that have to happen.
Yes, it will be difficult, and there are some hotspots for some people that single-handedly manage a lot of addresses, but if there’s anything we can do, we’re happy to help.
We aim to make this change a long-term decision: we do not plan on changing the use case again. However, keep in mind that the TAC members have an one year term. Ours expires in about 7 months. It may be different people next year with different opinions, but we hope that the Board will agree to the “at least 5 years” that we proposed.
That would help, if there was 5 years of guaranteed stability.
Yes, indeed. We would like to see more, but we requested “at least 5 years”. We’d like to see all future allocations based on this scheme. Keep in mind that the current Direct BGP allocations, no matter the size, are also time limited, in the current state of things, with no guarantee of renewal. So technically this was also a problem before, but realistically it did not affect anyone. I think we just have some more renumbering than usual to do now because this proposal is the largest change to IPv4 Allocation Policy in 44/8 since the original once with the States and Countries.
There are some technical solutions (like netmap that I mentioned in a previous e-mail) that can help you be available on the new space from day 1, and then give you enough time to renumber the hosts while both IP addresses work at the same time. As I said earlier, we plan to give time to people, and we hope that it will be something that will happen only once. We are also all available here, in this mailing list, to share our experiences and help each other. I am sure that Germany has plenty of that to share with us as the unofficial 44 Net champions of renumbering :)
netmap sounds interesting, but where does that run? My VPS is also fairly old, so installing new software can get tricky. However, I will have to be careful not to confuse the various services and systems that I'm running. Some things are rather IP sensitive. I have no idea how they'll handle netmap.
It is configured in the iptables so it’s within the firewall of the Linux kernel. You don’t need to install additional software. Any Linux server or MikroTik Router (since it runs on Linux) can do it and all the traffic going through this host (e.g. the VPS in this case) can be modified. So you can route your new prefix, and add a rule to your firewall to check if the “Destination IP” is the new prefix, to perform the action “netmap” (instead of “accept” or “drop” or “reject”) to the old prefix. And similarly for outgoing traffic (if the Source is the old, “netmap” to the new).
We are all in this together, and I would like to think that we are all working towards a common goal. Renumbering is something that we have to do, but the benefits of doing so will probably outweigh the cost, especially in the long term. The ARDC Board typically sets the direction for many years to come, and not for short periods of time that then get changed frequently.
Yeah, see what the Board says.
Seems the provider Echolink uses is near the longer end of that range. :(
Yes, this is something that causes issues for network operators globally.. Just have a look at NANOG and all the geolocation problems they have weeks after the acquisition of new space. But Echolink is an amateur radio software, so I am confident that we could talk to the maintainers and be able to work out a solution, because of the changes that we do in a large scale. In the worst case that this isn’t possible, I think the 3 month period is definitely a reasonable time to wait for, if not more.
Don’t worry, we propose these changes to enable people, not to break their use case and cause them problems.
Yeah, I'd need some time with the new IPs allocated, so geolocation can catch up. Putting me in San Diego isn't very helpful! :D
According to Chris’ e-mail you can get this space even today it seems :)
I can see why you're doing this, and on paper, it's a good idea. Ironically, for me, the IPIP tunneled space on my LAN would be easier to renumber!
Then start from that :) Let’s all take easy small steps first for quick wins, and move to the more complicated ones after we determined a path and found a solution.
Except that network doesn't need renumbering, it's part of the VPN already, and one day I want to run IP over RF, using that allocation.
Oh I see. Well, one less network then ;)
I can’t say I am familiar with that personally, but I would start a thread on the mailing list to figure out what other people did. Probably Germany had at least a D-STAR Reflector and an Echolink Proxy and they can provide some insight on how they did this. Alternatively, we can all figure out a path to do this together. You’re not alone! Collectively it should be easier!
Don't know if the Germans were running any of that type of infrastructure. I know some other IRLP reflectors use 44.x space (though I'm the only one in 44.190/16), and I believe the IRLP VPN service does as well.
Hopefully then can respond to this thread then and tell us themselves!
Thanks, Antonis