44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Rob
On 6 Feb 2013, at 21:49, Rob Janssen wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Perhaps in the US, I don't know, I'm from the UK, not every country has such licence requirements. Have you looked at the ampr.org hosts file recently? There are a lot of A records mapping 44/8 IPs that are clearly not based on callsigns.
We are also allocating subnets out to people experimenting with BGP announcements and other projects that will require more flexible arrangements.
Chris
Maybe these oddball DNS names should "include" the callsign somewhere. I do personally know of an instance in 2005/2006 where there were some non-amateur servers in North America using 44 addresses!
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Perhaps in the US, I don't know, I'm from the UK, not every country has such licence requirements. Have you looked at the ampr.org hosts file recently? There are a lot of A records mapping 44/8 IPs that are clearly not based on callsigns.
We are also allocating subnets out to people experimenting with BGP announcements and other projects that will require more flexible arrangements.
Chris,
As a coordinator I got a request that had some problems and I wrote a note about the problems and clicked reject, according to the instructions on the web page. What happened was not what I expected. Instead of acknowledging my action, the reject was blocked (the note was not sent) and I got the following message in red under the test Co-ordinator: Request Allocation
"The network overlaps an existing entry"
Which actually was part of the problem in the first place.
I got the reject accepted only after changing the request. Why would I have to do that when I was going to reject it anyway and rather let the requesting person change it.
Bjorn
Greetings,
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Rob Janssen wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Not that I am aware of. The IP traffic has NEVER required any callsign identification. Nor has the TCP traffic. Transmissions over the air are always carried atop layer 2, which is the AX.25 Link Layer protocol. The transmitters on each end of every radio link use the callsign to identify each and every frame sent over the air. Our callsigns are used in AX.25 Link Layer in the same way that MAC addresses are used in the 802.3 ethernet layer 2 / link layer protocol. Take a look at your ARP table to confirm this.
The "transmitters" must be identified, and they may identify *within* the published protocol (in this case AX.25). This is all that the FCC requires.
--- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Michigan IP coordinator (44.102/16)
D-STAR DD (Ethernet over D-STAR) Identifies in D-STAR frame, which encapsulates the Ethernet packet, which incapsulates the IP packet. AX.25 Identifies at the AX.25 frame level. HSMM uses ICMP or other methods to identify in the clear ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_multimedia_radio#Identification)
In the US a transmitter must identify every 10 minutes during a 'communication' and at the end of a 'communication'
The network should not enforce the most restrictive country's rules -- that is the obligation of the control operators of transmitters in that country.
DNS and reverse DNS should map the FQDN of the station along with its IP address. There are provisions in the TOS to delete allocations if it is abused.
------------------------------ John D. Hays K7VE PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 http://k7ve.org/blog http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Jay Nugent jjn@nuge.com wrote:
Not that I am aware of. The IP traffic has NEVER required any callsign identification. Nor has the TCP traffic. Transmissions over the air are always carried atop layer 2, which is the AX.25 Link Layer protocol. The transmitters on each end of every radio link use the callsign to identify each and every frame sent over the air. Our callsigns are used in AX.25 Link Layer in the same way that MAC addresses are used in the 802.3 ethernet layer 2 / link layer protocol. Take a look at your ARP table to confirm this.
The "transmitters" must be identified, and they may identify *within* the published protocol (in this case AX.25). This is all that the FCC requires.
--- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Michigan IP coordinator (44.102/16)
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Jay Nugent jjn@nuge.com wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) ______________________________**_________________ Greetings,
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Rob Janssen wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
______________________________**_________________ 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.**edu 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.eduwrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Not that I am aware of. The IP traffic has NEVER required any callsign identification. Nor has the TCP traffic. Transmissions over the air are always carried atop layer 2, which is the AX.25 Link Layer protocol. The transmitters on each end of every radio link use the callsign to identify each and every frame sent over the air. Our callsigns are used in AX.25 Link Layer in the same way that MAC addresses are used in the 802.3 ethernet layer 2 / link layer protocol. Take a look at your ARP table to confirm this.
The "transmitters" must be identified, and they may identify *within* the published protocol (in this case AX.25). This is all that the FCC requires.
--- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Michigan IP coordinator (44.102/16)
This is fine if you are using AX.25 for link layer media, but I don't see AX.25 being the only link layer used on AMPRNET by a long shot. 802.11 is growing in use and other link layer technologies exist. While info from DNS may not meet a requirement for Identification requirement, having the callsign of the party responsible (either directly as in the case of a gateway, or indirectly as in the case of an ISP) for the host required as part of the FQDN is helpful in tracing network issues.
AF6EP
On Feb 6, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Eric Fort wrote:
This is fine if you are using AX.25 for link layer media, but I don't see AX.25 being the only link layer used on AMPRNET by a long shot. 802.11 is growing in use and other link layer technologies exist. While info from DNS may not meet a requirement for Identification requirement, having the callsign of the party responsible (either directly as in the case of a gateway, or indirectly as in the case of an ISP) for the host required as part of the FQDN is helpful in tracing network issues.
This concern is usually addressed through information in the whois database, which includes, among other things, administrative and technical contacts for domain names. This allows domain names to reflect what the service is, not who runs it or how it's connected. This is how the internet and most local networks work, because this isolates network topology changes and administrative changes from the users of the service, who don't care about these details.
Now that the responsible parties for each subnet are starting to be tracked in a centralized database, perhaps it would be a good idea to connect it to an rwhois service. That way anyone can look up who is responsible for an AMPRNet IP in the exact same way they would for any other IP address.
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@gmail.com wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Jay Nugent jjn@nuge.com wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) ______________________________**_________________ Greetings,
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Rob Janssen wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
______________________________**_________________ 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.**edu 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.eduwrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Not that I am aware of. The IP traffic has NEVER required any callsign identification. Nor has the TCP traffic. Transmissions over the air are always carried atop layer 2, which is the AX.25 Link Layer protocol. The transmitters on each end of every radio link use the callsign to identify each and every frame sent over the air. Our callsigns are used in AX.25 Link Layer in the same way that MAC addresses are used in the 802.3 ethernet layer 2 / link layer protocol. Take a look at your ARP table to confirm this.
The "transmitters" must be identified, and they may identify *within* the published protocol (in this case AX.25). This is all that the FCC requires.
--- Jay Nugent WB8TKL Michigan IP coordinator (44.102/16)This is fine if you are using AX.25 for link layer media, but I don't see AX.25 being the only link layer used on AMPRNET by a long shot. 802.11 is growing in use and other link layer technologies exist. While info from DNS may not meet a requirement for Identification requirement, having the callsign of the party responsible (either directly as in the case of a gateway, or indirectly as in the case of an ISP) for the host required as part of the FQDN is helpful in tracing network issues.
AF6EP
44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net http://www.ampr.org/donate.html
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 16:21:47 -0800, "Cory (NQ1E)" cory@nq1e.hm wrote:
Now that the responsible parties for each subnet are starting to be tracked in a centralized database, perhaps it would be a good idea to connect it to an rwhois service. That way anyone can look up who is responsible for an AMPRNet IP in the exact same way they would for any other IP address.
Is anyone running whois daemons on the Internet anymore? Last time I tried doing whois on a name it failed. The spammers have made it impossible to put up a whois because they mined them all for valid emails so organizations had to abandon it.
whois on a name it failed. The spammers have made it impossible to put up a whois because they mined them all for valid emails so organizations had to abandon it.
Could it be filtered to only allow access from 44 net clients....
Bill, WA7NWP
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 16:43:53 -0800, Bill Vodall wa7nwp@gmail.com wrote:
whois on a name it failed. The spammers have made it impossible to put up a whois because they mined them all for valid emails so organizations had to abandon it.
Could it be filtered to only allow access from 44 net clients....
Bill, WA7NWP
I suppose, but then how would a ham who needed to contact a coordinator to obtain a net-44 address get the coordinator's contact information?
I only raised the issue to point out the possibility of exploitation but I may have been confusing whois with finger. Whois is for domain information so it has limited use for spammers, finger was the bigger issue years ago.
On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 05:05:43PM -0800, Geoff Joy wrote:
I suppose, but then how would a ham who needed to contact a coordinator to obtain a net-44 address get the coordinator's contact information?
Through the portal - some sort of 'send a message' or 'contact me' function could provide that without revealing email addresses to spammers. - Brian
On Feb 6, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Bill Vodall wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
whois on a name it failed. The spammers have made it impossible to put up a whois because they mined them all for valid emails so organizations had to abandon it.
Could it be filtered to only allow access from 44 net clients....
It could. Or, it could just not contain email addresses. The query result is just free form text, so it could include just a call-sign.
We're looking into a whois/rwhois service, but there are issues of privacy and spam to be considered. My first thought is to make a lookup available only to someone logged into the portal site. - Brian
My thoughts are people probably should not be announcing BGP prefixes on the Internet if they have a issue of not giving out their contact info. I believe the initial intent of rwhois with regard to AMPRNet is only for people who are announcing prefixes via BGP. Not the small "sub" assignments within said announced BGP prefixes.
I agree that if people want to drill down deeper into the announcements they should either Email the person responsible for that announcement (contact from rwhois) or if it's a AMPRNet user then they can log into the portal and view it also if AMPRNet will allow that.
Tim Osburn www.osburn.com W7RSZ
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Brian Kantor wrote:
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 17:20:23 -0800 From: Brian Kantor Brian@ucsd.edu Reply-To: AMPRNet working group 44net@hamradio.ucsd.edu To: AMPRNet working group 44net@hamradio.ucsd.edu Subject: Re: [44net] whois/rwhois
We're looking into a whois/rwhois service, but there are issues of privacy and spam to be considered. My first thought is to make a lookup available only to someone logged into the portal site.
- Brian
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Tim Osburn wrote:
My thoughts are people probably should not be announcing BGP prefixes on the Internet if they have a issue of not giving out their contact info. I believe the initial intent of rwhois with regard to AMPRNet is only for people who are announcing prefixes via BGP. Not the small "sub" assignments within said announced BGP prefixes.
Actually that's an RIR requirement regardless of whether the address space is even routed publicly. BGP has nothing to do with it - only that the prefix is shorter than a /29 - and the LIR has a choice of either SWIPing the assignment or putting it in rwhois. Moreover, net-44 is a legacy resource which I don't think is legally governed by any specific RIR policies (ie. I don't think we've signed on to any legacy RSAs).
However, a (r)whois lookup facility would not be a bad idea.
Antonio Querubin e-mail: tony@lavanauts.org xmpp: antonioquerubin@gmail.com
whois/rwhois listing,* including an email address*, of the responsible contact for an allocation *should be mandatory and available publicly*.
If the net manager has "I can't stand hitting delete on SPAM" disorder, they can setup an email address specifically for this function (and check it daily) using something like a free gmail account, which has pretty good SPAM filtering in the first place.
------------------------------ John D. Hays K7VE PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 http://k7ve.org/blog http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:31 AM, Antonio Querubin tony@lavanauts.org wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) ______________________________**_________________ On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Tim Osburn wrote:
My thoughts are people probably should not be announcing BGPprefixes on the Internet if they have a issue of not giving out their contact info. I believe the initial intent of rwhois with regard to AMPRNet is only for people who are announcing prefixes via BGP. Not the small "sub" assignments within said announced BGP prefixes.
Actually that's an RIR requirement regardless of whether the address space is even routed publicly. BGP has nothing to do with it - only that the prefix is shorter than a /29 - and the LIR has a choice of either SWIPing the assignment or putting it in rwhois. Moreover, net-44 is a legacy resource which I don't think is legally governed by any specific RIR policies (ie. I don't think we've signed on to any legacy RSAs).
However, a (r)whois lookup facility would not be a bad idea.
Antonio Querubin e-mail: tony@lavanauts.org xmpp: antonioquerubin@gmail.com
Yep. I have no problem listing my contact information publicly for 44.24.127.0/24 or whatever the /23 ends up being if we decide to allocate a larger subnet for San Juan County. I'd be happy to maintain the PTR records and whois/rwhois servers for the net as well.
73
C.J. Adams-Collier KF7BMP PO Box 1988, Eastsound, WA 98245-1988
On Thu, 2013-02-07 at 09:38 -0800, K7VE - John wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ whois/rwhois listing, including an email address, of the responsible contact for an allocation should be mandatory and available publicly.
If the net manager has "I can't stand hitting delete on SPAM" disorder, they can setup an email address specifically for this function (and check it daily) using something like a free gmail account, which has pretty good SPAM filtering in the first place.
John D. Hays K7VE PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:31 AM, Antonio Querubin tony@lavanauts.org wrote: (Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Tim Osburn wrote: My thoughts are people probably should not be announcing BGP prefixes on the Internet if they have a issue of not giving out their contact info. I believe the initial intent of rwhois with regard to AMPRNet is only for people who are announcing prefixes via BGP. Not the small "sub" assignments within said announced BGP prefixes. Actually that's an RIR requirement regardless of whether the address space is even routed publicly. BGP has nothing to do with it - only that the prefix is shorter than a /29 - and the LIR has a choice of either SWIPing the assignment or putting it in rwhois. Moreover, net-44 is a legacy resource which I don't think is legally governed by any specific RIR policies (ie. I don't think we've signed on to any legacy RSAs). However, a (r)whois lookup facility would not be a bad idea. Antonio Querubin e-mail: tony@lavanauts.org xmpp: antonioquerubin@gmail.com_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net http://www.ampr.org/donate.html
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 10:00:34AM -0800, C.J. Adams-Collier KF7BMP wrote:
the PTR records
Thanks for the offer, but we currently have seven nameservers worldwide serving the 44.IN-ADDR.ARPA. zone for PTR records, which are automatically generated from the A records in the AMPR.ORG zone. I think that's probably adequate for the near future. - Brian
They do but you can decide for minimum or maximum information in it at your registrar.
Bob VE3TOK
On 13-02-06 07:40 PM, Geoff Joy wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ On Wed, 6 Feb 2013 16:21:47 -0800, "Cory (NQ1E)" cory@nq1e.hm wrote:
Now that the responsible parties for each subnet are starting to be tracked in a centralized database, perhaps it would be a good idea to connect it to an rwhois service. That way anyone can look up who is responsible for an AMPRNet IP in the exact same way they would for any other IP address.
Is anyone running whois daemons on the Internet anymore? Last time I tried doing whois on a name it failed. The spammers have made it impossible to put up a whois because they mined them all for valid emails so organizations had to abandon it.
44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net http://www.ampr.org/donate.html
Rob,
I have a dutch licence and there is nothing in there about host names.
Is this only a requirement for unattended gateways as these need a separate licence from the government there?
Bob (Boudewijn) VE3TOK
On 13-02-06 04:49 PM, Rob Janssen wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ 44net-request@hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote:
the DNS functionality is a separate module and is not tied to the name of the IP/subnet, not everyone uses their callsign as the DNS name
But that is a license requirement! We need a mapping between IP address and callsign for legal use of IP on amateur radio.... (ID requirement)
Rob _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net http://www.ampr.org/donate.html
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Antonio Querubin -
Bill Vodall -
Bjorn Pehrson -
Bob Tenty -
Brian Kantor -
C.J. Adams-Collier KF7BMP -
Charles Hargrove -
Chris Smith -
Cory (NQ1E) -
Eric Fort -
Geoff Joy -
Jay Nugent -
K7VE - John -
Phillip Frost -
Rob Janssen -
Tim Osburn