Wow.
I've been watching lots of message traffic that really only applies to what I would consider to be "edge cases"...BGP especially, when I'm here in the Adirondack State Park in upstate New York, Secretary of the local club (W2WCR), hollering "Hey, we should look into rebuilding the packet network north along the Hudson to Montreal and west to Buffalo along the St Laurence like it used to be." for a few years now and getting "Well, we have winlink, so it's ok."
I have my allocation, and can't even use it because my local packet nodes are stuck using some archaic BS that can't route netrom needs either a DOS box with real serial ports and UARTS and a real TNC-2 with 6pack eprom (done, invested about $100 in a mfg-1270c and community-supported eprom...only to find out a year after buying it and waiting that it doesn't work) or an old 2.x Linux kernel to even have half a chance.
I'm an extra now, but to be honest, I was really looking forward to playing with packet. The local packet folks have been great, tho similarly frustrated, either with having to attempt to upgrade the existing Eastnet/Flexnet history lesson on sites that aren't exactly accessable or even upgradable, or trying to convince clubs and county-maintained systems that it would be in their best interest to upgrade or replace equipment that used to exist but there is actually no real upgrade/migration path.
So I have a node running as best as 24/7 as I can, with no real motivation to do so, no mail feed, wondering what the point actually is. And all I see is BGP BGP BGP BGP....BGP, and oh, BGP mentioned in this mailing list, wondering if there is some relation to CRT, as old as the tech is around here.
I thought there was some RF involved, but all I see is BGP. If I wasn't an IT person, with a MikroTik Routerboard, I wouldn't have a clue. That, and the fact that I'm practically in a broadband desert, literally makes me sick and tired of any discussion of connecting anything anywhere that doesn't involve RF.
Hm. Perhaps I need to say that again.
I AM PERSONALLY SICK AND TIRED OF CONVERSATIONS DEALING WITH PACKET RADIO/AX.25 THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE RF. YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE!!!!!!
FSCK GBP. Some of us can only wish we weren't stuck with hoping someone will connect with our PC3+s or hand-configured direwolf linux/uronode systems who are interested in something called "packet radio". When is someone going to start dealing with the fact that there are AMATEUR __RADIO__ OPERATORS, WITH _AMATEUR RADIO LICENSES_ that may actually be interested in sending digital, AX.25 via IP to other anateur radio operators via RF? I can't possibly be the only one.
Geez.
Sorry. Just frustrated for a little too long, seeing lots of traffic I'd consider "Much todo about nothing" and lots of money behind it.
WTF, over.
73 de Jeff AJ2A
Jeff Archambeault Proprietor, Bark Eater Studios Technology Frustration Resolution Solutions jeff@barkeaterstudios.com (518) 696-5675 (home) (518) 595-9815 (cell)
Jeff is also right to ask for data to be sent on RF. But I must tell you something, ax.25 , forget it. we are now in the 2.3ghz with line of sight links that will give you the chance to download all the mail ever sent on packet in a few minute at most.
your 6pack rom and packet modem are not outdated, they are out. just simply out. I am just north of montreal, If you want a fast tcp/ip link we could manage something and bring back the eastnet network from the crawl it been doing to the speed of a signal that is 20mhz wide.
Pierre VE2PF
________________________________________ De : 44Net 44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org de la part de Jeff Archambeault via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Envoyé : 3 août 2021 23:50 À : 44net@mailman.ampr.org Cc : Jeff Archambeault Objet : [44net] On Allocations, PoPs, Proposals, and something called RF
Wow.
I've been watching lots of message traffic that really only applies to what I would consider to be "edge cases"...BGP especially, when I'm here in the Adirondack State Park in upstate New York, Secretary of the local club (W2WCR), hollering "Hey, we should look into rebuilding the packet network north along the Hudson to Montreal and west to Buffalo along the St Laurence like it used to be." for a few years now and getting "Well, we have winlink, so it's ok."
I have my allocation, and can't even use it because my local packet nodes are stuck using some archaic BS that can't route netrom needs either a DOS box with real serial ports and UARTS and a real TNC-2 with 6pack eprom (done, invested about $100 in a mfg-1270c and community-supported eprom...only to find out a year after buying it and waiting that it doesn't work) or an old 2.x Linux kernel to even have half a chance.
I'm an extra now, but to be honest, I was really looking forward to playing with packet. The local packet folks have been great, tho similarly frustrated, either with having to attempt to upgrade the existing Eastnet/Flexnet history lesson on sites that aren't exactly accessable or even upgradable, or trying to convince clubs and county-maintained systems that it would be in their best interest to upgrade or replace equipment that used to exist but there is actually no real upgrade/migration path.
So I have a node running as best as 24/7 as I can, with no real motivation to do so, no mail feed, wondering what the point actually is. And all I see is BGP BGP BGP BGP....BGP, and oh, BGP mentioned in this mailing list, wondering if there is some relation to CRT, as old as the tech is around here.
I thought there was some RF involved, but all I see is BGP. If I wasn't an IT person, with a MikroTik Routerboard, I wouldn't have a clue. That, and the fact that I'm practically in a broadband desert, literally makes me sick and tired of any discussion of connecting anything anywhere that doesn't involve RF.
Hm. Perhaps I need to say that again.
I AM PERSONALLY SICK AND TIRED OF CONVERSATIONS DEALING WITH PACKET RADIO/AX.25 THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE RF. YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE!!!!!!
FSCK GBP. Some of us can only wish we weren't stuck with hoping someone will connect with our PC3+s or hand-configured direwolf linux/uronode systems who are interested in something called "packet radio". When is someone going to start dealing with the fact that there are AMATEUR __RADIO__ OPERATORS, WITH _AMATEUR RADIO LICENSES_ that may actually be interested in sending digital, AX.25 via IP to other anateur radio operators via RF? I can't possibly be the only one.
Geez.
Sorry. Just frustrated for a little too long, seeing lots of traffic I'd consider "Much todo about nothing" and lots of money behind it.
WTF, over.
73 de Jeff AJ2A
Jeff Archambeault Proprietor, Bark Eater Studios Technology Frustration Resolution Solutions jeff@barkeaterstudios.com (518) 696-5675 (home) (518) 595-9815 (cell) _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Sorry. Just frustrated for a little too long, seeing lots of traffic I'd consider "Much todo about nothing" and lots of money behind it. ... Technology Frustration Resolution Solutions
I am just north of montreal, If you want a fast tcp/ip link we could manage something and bring back the eastnet network from the crawl it been doing to the speed of a signal that is 20mhz wide.
Don't let lack of money stand between you and a fun amateur packet radio network! ARDC is actively soliciting proposals from ham clubs to upgrade or install repeaters, networks, equipment, towers, etc. We also funded DARC.DE to make similar grants throughout Europe. See:
https://www.ampr.org/ardc-grants-support-amateur-radio-clubs/ https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/2021-03-ardc-amateur-radio-club.pdf https://www.ampr.org/the-deutscher-amateur-radio-club-e-v-darc-initiates-gra...
A deadline for August 1st club grant proposals just passed, but we also review grant requests on a rolling basis (i.e. anytime).
John
PS: I started in packet radio with a Vancouver Board back in the 1980s with 1200 baud Bell 202 modem modulation, accessing Hank Magnuski's minicomputer via multiple 2M repeaters at well under 300 bits per second, even slower than telephone modems. Jeff, that was 40 years ago! Now, mass market WiFi-inspired circuitry with microwave antennas cost ~$100 and move many megabits over many kilometers. They still demand competent RF engineers, and competent network administrators. Good for resolution of your technology frustration.
Well, you have to understand that this is 44Net, a list dedicated mostly to doing TCP/IP over packet radio, using the 44.x.x.x IP space that has been allocated long ago. We have started in the mid eighties by using the AX.25 protocol to transport IP packets, and we have built software that supported that on the systems of the time. We were pioneers in the IP world, certainly in the field of running IP over very slow connections. We were often "hated" by the BBS and keyboard-to-keyboard folk for sending unreadable gibberish that disturbed their monitoring functions. We are not AX.25 folks, we have *used* the AX.25 packet protocol to achieve our goals. And we have moved on. We are now mainly using WiFi radio technology, and to interconnect networks outside radio range we use tunnels over internet. Some of us even have made connection between devices on this IP network and internet. Not all of us like that, and it is not allowed everywhere. But that usually does not preclude using the tunnels over internet. We transport IP everywhere. When we develop or discover other radio technologies that can transport packets, we use and discuss those. They usually will not be AX.25.
So, AX.25 packet radio is not our subject of discussion (anymore). When you want that, you probably have to look somewhere else. We are networking people, that use amateur radio as a medium. Many of us have used AX.25 over voice radio at some time, maybe we still have some APRS node, but voice-bandwidth AX.25 is mostly a thing of the past for most of us.
When you are not interested in this topic, feel free to no longer follow it. Hamradio has lots of different aspects, and it often occurs that some people do not like some aspect. Unfortunately, it also often happens that people who do not see the fun of some mode, start offending its users or downplaying the usefulness or hamspirit of that mode. Don't do that, it makes you appear negative. Use a mode you like.
Rob
On 8/4/21 5:50 AM, Jeff Archambeault via 44Net wrote:
So I have a node running as best as 24/7 as I can, with no real motivation to do so, no mail feed, wondering what the point actually is. And all I see is BGP BGP BGP BGP....BGP, and oh, BGP mentioned in this mailing list, wondering if there is some relation to CRT, as old as the tech is around here.
I thought there was some RF involved, but all I see is BGP. If I wasn't an IT person, with a MikroTik Routerboard, I wouldn't have a clue. That, and the fact that I'm practically in a broadband desert, literally makes me sick and tired of any discussion of connecting anything anywhere that doesn't involve RF.
Hm. Perhaps I need to say that again.
I AM PERSONALLY SICK AND TIRED OF CONVERSATIONS DEALING WITH PACKET RADIO/AX.25 THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE RF. YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE!!!!!!
On 4/8/21 5:55 pm, Rob PE1CHL via 44Net wrote:
So, AX.25 packet radio is not our subject of discussion (anymore). When you want that, you probably have to look somewhere else. We are networking people, that use amateur radio as a medium. Many of us have used AX.25 over voice radio at some time, maybe we still have some APRS node, but voice-bandwidth AX.25 is mostly a thing of the past for most of us.
Rob, I take an inclusive approach. I was there in the early 90s, running IP over AX.25. For me, it brings back positive memories. I was studying TCP/IP at university at the time, and I could go home the same day and watch the protocols in action at a speed I could follow in real time over packet radio.
Today, I have interest in all aspects of 44net networking.I currently have 2 allocations. One /24 is dedicated to internet facing services for hams. It includes an IRLP reflector (9550), D-STAR reflector (the popular REF023), several Echolink conferences and 150+ Echolink proxies, the majority of which are public proxies, available to any amateur. In addition, there are a number of private proxies - one for me, and a small number for other amateurs, who need something more dedicated than a public proxy.
The other allocation is currently running on the IPIP mesh. My original intend was to bring back some small scale IP over AX.25, but there is now am opportunity to run high speed data on microwave with local amateurs, so I could look at providing dedicated services over the amateur Intranet. And while they would be locally based, I'm more than happy to share them over the entire Intranet. Some old school BBSs (traditional packet and IP enabled dialup style), and some other services.
Right now, outside of ham radio, there's a resurgence in retro tech. Might as well make use of that, while playing with the newer, more capable gear.
As I said, my interests here run the full spectrum from retro AX.25 to microwave networks and Internet facing BGP routed services. I like to keep an open mind.
I also want to look at IPv6 options - how we're going to manage IPv6 for hams. I have multiple options there as well, and I'm happy to experiment. I have a /56 at my disposal here, along with experience running private IPv6 allocations.
Like you I learned *a lot* from watching the traces of AX.25 packet radio! I got a lot of understanding about how those protocols work from it.
Of course today people still use APRS, and AX.25 is often used as a framing protocol for satellite telemetry so you see it often mentioned in specifications and being used on networks like SatNOGS.
I do not want to say "we should not use AX.25 anymore" but merely that it isn't really the topic of this list, and never has been. So people reading about networking and routing all the time and expecting more about AX.25 likely are in the wrong place here.
I fully agree: there are always new things to experiment and tinker, and sometimes old things that can be brought alive again.
Rob
On 8/4/21 10:37 AM, Tony Langdon via 44Net wrote:
On 4/8/21 5:55 pm, Rob PE1CHL via 44Net wrote:
So, AX.25 packet radio is not our subject of discussion (anymore). When you want that, you probably have to look somewhere else. We are networking people, that use amateur radio as a medium. Many of us have used AX.25 over voice radio at some time, maybe we still have some APRS node, but voice-bandwidth AX.25 is mostly a thing of the past for most of us.
Rob, I take an inclusive approach. I was there in the early 90s, running IP over AX.25. For me, it brings back positive memories. I was studying TCP/IP at university at the time, and I could go home the same day and watch the protocols in action at a speed I could follow in real time over packet radio.
On 4/8/21 6:48 pm, Rob PE1CHL via 44Net wrote:
Like you I learned *a lot* from watching the traces of AX.25 packet radio! I got a lot of understanding about how those protocols work from it.
Yep, 1200bps AX.25 was a fantastic learning tool, and the first time I fired up NOS and could decode IP headers showed me a whole new world. The fact that ham TNCs and software tended to default to monitor (packet sniffing) mode when not connected to anything back in the day helped too. That also made the output of tcpdump seem rather familiar, years later.
Of course today people still use APRS, and AX.25 is often used as a framing protocol for satellite telemetry so you see it often mentioned in specifications and being used on networks like SatNOGS.
I'm one of those many people who use APRS.
I do not want to say "we should not use AX.25 anymore" but merely that it isn't really the topic of this list, and never has been. So people reading about networking and routing all the time and expecting more about AX.25 likely are in the wrong place here.
Yes, these days, AX.25 is a relatively small part of 44net's activities. It's there, but definitely not dominant anymore
I fully agree: there are always new things to experiment and tinker, and sometimes old things that can be brought alive again.
Ham radio is good at advancing the art, while preserving older modes no longer in commercial use, like a mix between a community laboratory and a living museum. I quite like that mix.
Let me be clear about my view of what net44 is what it is not. Net44 is an IP space. That ip space have been granted to the ham community to experiment with networks and digital communication. What I see nett44 as is like network of road. Some of the roads are highways. The flow of traffic is free and there is no bottleneck. some are backroads. the fork from large highways and they go to a ham places. That ham can decide that anyone can come and look at the end of the road, some are more peaky about how get to get in the end point. They prefer that it be only ham's or even just some particular ham's that can and look at the place and maybe use the tracter or drink a beer!
What vehicle that ride on the road can be a simple car, a big truck or even a bike. Each have the vehicle they want. They can come from the big exchange down the main road and be hackers, ham's, plain internet user. Or they can come from inside the net44 road network and be ham.
Those ham also have a back road going towards their place. they can be peaky or not. and the peaky one can choose to go to every place on the road and the big exchange or they can go to see only other peaky ham's places only.
That is net44 for me.
What is not net44 is at the end of the back roads, it can be anything. a garage a liquor store a cloth store or a restaurant. That is to the ham that made the back road available to decide.
My analogy is a bit awkward. It does not show every use case but it very close of doing it.
Net44 is a network. What it should be doing is link ham to either the big internet and be reachable by the big internet and net44. It also should link net44 for ham only to net44 for ham only only. And it should link net44 for ham only to the big internet at the demand of someone inside net44 for ham only like we do at home behind our firewall to prevent the big internet from invading our home.
What run on the links is not a use case of the network. I think of a network as a tool. once we have the tool working we can do something with it. Our tool make the transfert of data possible. Most of the time that data will be served in a client/server fashion. ( I dont think we want to have some multicasting all over the net44) So every thing that is so is not a use case for me.
If a ham put a DMR repeater on a link that is on net44 (what ever the use case) it will be a client that will connect to a server ( like Brandmeister, TGIF, DMR Marc, etc..) and the server will respond. We can now deduct that this repeater should be on the open to the big internet part of net44 as it need to connect outside of net44 ip space and will probably want to be also reachable from outside net44. How do I deduct it? It is by knowing the target audience . this make all the difference in the world. If the target audience of an ip address from net44 is for every one on earth can can connect to the internet or net44, then it is a use case. Since that ip address want to be reachable from the big internet it can also connect to the big internet like anyone else.
If the target audience is ham only then it is a use case. If the same ip address need to access the big internet, it should be doing it as if it was behind a firewall. Now can we make sure only ham's are using net44 ip address to that user? The answer is no. We seen in the last month that hacker were using some of the unused /24 and they were advertising them by BGP. So if someone do this the ham that want to give to ham only access to his SDR or even transceiver, can trust the fact that a user that connect from a net44 address is a ham right now.
Now How can we make sure the ham's that are peaky to whom access their service they put online can trust that the one connecting to their service? The only good way is to make sure that only parts that are ham only can route to ham only section. How can we do this at the network routing level? Simply by giving the route to the router that connect to the ham only part of net44 a list of the "officially" ham only section of net44.
But there is something about net44 right now. Ip address allocation in spread all over the place cause it used to be assigned by country or part of the USA. So imagine how many route a router will have to manage if we go that route, hum.. sorry wrong choice of word, If we choose to keep net44 sparsely assigned to either a net for ham only and some other part connected to the big internet.
And things will get even worst if we now have some POP (point of presence) that will link new ham to the net44 in a more efficient way than the ipip mesh . The number of route will multiply. Cause those ham will want either to experiment with networking in the net44 address space, maybe access the big internet also and maybe connect to ham only services.
How will we manage this? Dont get fooled by the magic idea that the POP will all manage that. This would be a KOLOSSAL thing to achieve with existing technology. And I did not even start thinking about maintaining it. Yes there is a new portal in development. But do we want it soon or only in 5 years? And 5 years is not even difficult to imagine. The portal will need to manage the login of all the ham that are net44 user. It will also need to manage a way to distribute the route of all the various type of connection and target audience to all the POP's It will need to modify the DB of ARIN for all the allocation by itself if we dont want to have to wait a long time to new request. It will need to manage rDNS, location advertising, name it ,all automatically. Am I the only one that thinks this is not far from being magical to think will be done in the next few months?
The proposal made by the TAC was supposed to fix all this at the network level with simple solution that are not that difficult to implement WHILE the new portal is being developed and stuff automated. But at the same time since there would be easy identifiable network in 2 /10 (44.0/10 and 44.128/10) it would not be putting a large burden to develop ways of doing complicated routing transparent to the ham community with software.
We all know what will happen, develop a new soft, test it find bugs, test again, make it alpha to test even more with a small group of user. find new bugs or the idea dont scale well, back to the drawing board, test the new solution again with alpha tester, go to beta, new bugs, strange problems arise, new version, bug fixed, new bugs found, fix bugs, Candidate Release 1, new bugs , CR2, add new user to the test bed. Oups big problems'. patch, CR3, test it a bit lounger with even more beta tester, ok we have version 1.0!!! Now we have the whole community using it. Some like it, and want that and that new fonction, some other dont like this and that and of course, there is no ver 1.0 that does not come with bugs..
The TCP/IP routing stack is mature. It been developed for decades and decades. We still have some modification to it for new protocols or security patch. Why go with new software development to prevent people from renumbering? Cause in the end this is the main problem that been reported to the mailing list.
People want AMPR to find another solution because they are entitled to the address space they've been assigned to. But do they come with easy solution? Nope. Not one solution is simple to implement on the networking point of view. And they all rely on new software or new solution that have not been really test for the use case.
Sorry for the long rant.
Pierre VE2PF
On 04.08.21 at 05:50 Jeff Archambeault wrote via 44Net:
... When is someone going to start dealing with the fact that there are AMATEUR __RADIO__ OPERATORS, WITH _AMATEUR RADIO LICENSES_ that may actually be interested in sending digital, AX.25 via IP to other anateur radio operators via RF? I can't possibly be the only one.
Jeff, rest assured: You are not alone!
While not having been an amateur operator during the golden age of packet radio, I always have been entangled with computers and Linux in particular. Nowadays I have a connection to the Austrian leg of the European HAMNET and I also have a small IP connected to 44net via IPIP. While it is great to know that I am connected to the largest radio only network at the same time it is a little frustrating because I am asking myself: What now?
I understand myself as a tinkerer. I was hoping to learn about networking more than what I was able to do at home. It just doesn't make sense to use hefty routing protocols for my few servers in the shack. Soon I had to recognize that the "admins" already were doing the routing for me. Thank you, I appreciate the many work you have done! So what is left to do for me? Oh I can "use" the network. Sorry, I don't intend to sound sarcastic, but this isn't quite what I did expect. I can also use the internet at a very reasonable price. I even have wireless internet at a cost which isn't much more than my license fee. So why should I "use" the 44net then?
What initially attracted my attention about 44net was that it promised to be a network for amateurs made by amateurs. I perceived a 44 address as the equivalent of my callsign in internet! Ok, I learned from the pro's that this possibly isn't a terribly good idea, because of routing problems. Yet the idea is still sitting in the back of my head: At least in AX.25 we indeed had the (globally unique) callsign as the network address.
So, again, what can I do then with 44net? I could run a service! Ok, fine. While that certainly would be possible I can do the very same in the internet and if I am for some exclusivity I could even use an overlay network. I do not need an amateur license to do so.
So indeed: Please keep in mind that we are a amateur radio centric group and that our primary interest should be RF. What I would dream of is a decentralized, resilient network of primarily RF links. As I believed this is the goal of 44net anyways.
For me lowering the barrier does not necessarily mean to make my routing the simplest one can think of, but make it understandable. Make it so that I can read about it and learn how to do it myself. Do not hide away required information. Help provide a space where documentation can be found. Give incentives to keep documents well written and current.
I admit that there is another class of amateurs as well, for which the 44net is "just another part of the internet", a very affordable though. A net that is specifically good for things like interconnection of repeaters and making accessible remote transmitters. These HAMs do not want (and should not need to) learn about routing issues.
After digging through all the mails in this large thread I feel that a split of the net address space indeed would not be the worst idea. The reason for the split, however, should be different:
1) There should be the service oriented network, i.e., a network running all the services that need a "professional" approach, like webservers, echolink proxies, etc. The address space should be structured such that routing can be done with minimal effort.
2) And there should be the rest of the space which could be open for tinkering by HAMs interested in promoting the successors of packet radio via RF links.
The answer whether this could be achieved with or without renumbering I leave to the pro's.
Before closing my post I would like to ask if someone knows for a better place for discussing the successors of (new) packet radio than this list?
vy 73 Roland, oe1rsa
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Jeff Archambeault -
John Gilmore -
pete M -
Rob PE1CHL -
Roland Schwarz -
Tony Langdon