Do you really think that the abundancy of elderly users in the amateur radio community is to be used as a reason not to change anything anymore until they all are dead? Should there be no development anymore just because these people cannot learn? Should we all stand still just because of that? Don't you think that the scarce newcomers we have (and need) will be running away in laughter when they see such statements being made?? I am in no way proposing that any radio amateur is to be joining the AMPRnet! When they are happy working in CW on HF, or to be contesting, just let them do it!  The AMPRnet is for those interested in networking and when they ar not interested in amateur IP there is no need for them to become familiar with it. That is a very narrowminded view.  The fact that you could make it work does not mean that it works for everyone.  We sometimes see the struggles here when people try to join, and I can tell you that joining the system I propose (and that we have had running here for several years, and is running in some other regions as well) is much easier to join. There is NO NEED anymore to fiddle with ISP routers to make forwardings or DMZ settings, NO NEED to install specialized software on routers or systems, just buy a suitable router (e.g. the MikroTik hEX, list price $59,95, or even smaller and cheaper models), apply some simple configuration steps that can be written up in a document, and you are online. And you can make a wireless connection to a friend or to some local access point and the routing will be fully automatic.  Traffic to your friend will be over your link and other traffic will be via the internet. As an example of what you need to connect this way, this is an example of all configuration required in such a router to connect (an actual export of a router): /interface l2tp-client add allow=mschap2 connect-to=213.222.29.196 disabled=no ipsec-secret=\     HAMNET-L2TP max-mru=1400 max-mtu=1400 name=l2tp-241 password=12345678 \     profile=default use-ipsec=yes user=l2tp-pd2ebh /routing bgp instance set default as=4220401109 router-id=44.137.11.158 /routing bgp network add network=44.137.11.144/28 /routing bgp peer add in-filter=hamnet-in name=gw-44-137 nexthop-choice=force-self out-filter=\     hamnet-out remote-address=44.137.61.254 remote-as=4220406100 ttl=1 \     update-source=l2tp-241 /routing filter add bgp-communities=44137:10050 chain=hamnet-in set-bgp-local-pref=50 add bgp-communities=44137:10200 chain=hamnet-in set-bgp-weight=200 add action=accept chain=hamnet-in prefix=44.0.0.0/8 prefix-length=8-32 add action=accept bgp-as-path=4220406100 chain=hamnet-in prefix=0.0.0.0/0 add action=discard chain=hamnet-in add action=accept chain=hamnet-out prefix=44.0.0.0/8 prefix-length=8-32 add action=accept bgp-as-path=4220406100 chain=hamnet-out prefix=0.0.0.0/0 add action=discard chain=hamnet-out That is all!  With this configuration, that user connects to our VPN server with L2TP/IPsec which passes NAT and can be on a dynamic address, advertises the local network and receives the routes.  This can be copied to another user and just be modified for the different user,password,AS number, router ID and local network. This is the text version of the configuration, it can be modified in a GUI when desired. Sure you can keep saying "but my 70+ years old users don't understand it and they have their JNOS box running IPIP so they don't want to change that" but do you really think this can be used as a reason to keep everything the same and not to allow others to join much more easily? That is like saying the new hams should learn CW because the old ones also did, and the new digital modes (e.g. FT-8) are evil because the CW operators don't understand them. Rob