I'll +1 your comments and raise you with this:
As President and engineer of EastNet, let me go over some bullet points for those especially NOT in our country or region.
o The average age of those sysops on EastNet is 70+ o They grew up without technology and are most happy to remain ignorant about it o BGP, IPIP, GRE are initial groupings they could care less about. o Many of these guys can't even type in a URL without their hands held. o Virtual Private Network to them sounds like the evil doings of the dark web and they want nothing to do with it. o If it's not standard equipment from my ISP it must be against my contract with them. o If HRO doesn't sell a pre-made appliance to plug in and use for this amprnet thing then it can't be any good or work.
Do you really think that the abundancy of elderly users in the amateur radio community is to be used as a reason not to change anything anymore until they all are dead? Should there be no development anymore just because these people cannot learn? Should we all stand still just because of that?
Don't you think that the scarce newcomers we have (and need) will be running away in laughter when they see such statements being made??
I could go on but I'll stop right there. As Charles tried to mention, just because a very small percentage of hams are familiar with amateur IP or amateur wired internet that doesn't mean the bulk of hams are or that they even wish to learn. Most still immediately think IP = wired only period and that's not what they took a license test for... and they find it to actually be offensive in regards to amateur RADIO. If it's not HF Contesting, it's not "ham radio" it's wire and they don't need nor want to learn about this... but they do wish to offer the services.
I am in no way proposing that any radio amateur is to be joining the AMPRnet! When they are happy working in CW on HF, or to be contesting, just let them do it! The AMPRnet is for those interested in networking and when they ar not interested in amateur IP there is no need for them to become familiar with it.
The current IPIP mesh network does indeed work... I suppose if it works don't fix it no longer applies? I'm on it and the fact you see this mail is a PoC it works.
That is a very narrowminded view. The fact that you could make it work does not mean that it works for everyone. We sometimes see the struggles here when people try to join, and I can tell you that joining the system I propose (and that we have had running here for several years, and is running in some other regions as well) is much easier to join. There is NO NEED anymore to fiddle with ISP routers to make forwardings or DMZ settings, NO NEED to install specialized software on routers or systems, just buy a suitable router (e.g. the MikroTik hEX, list price $59,95, or even smaller and cheaper models), apply some simple configuration steps that can be written up in a document, and you are online. And you can make a wireless connection to a friend or to some local access point and the routing will be fully automatic. Traffic to your friend will be over your link and other traffic will be via the internet.
As an example of what you need to connect this way, this is an example of all configuration required in such a router to connect (an actual export of a router):
/interface l2tp-client add allow=mschap2 connect-to=213.222.29.196 disabled=no ipsec-secret=\ HAMNET-L2TP max-mru=1400 max-mtu=1400 name=l2tp-241 password=12345678 \ profile=default use-ipsec=yes user=l2tp-pd2ebh /routing bgp instance set default as=4220401109 router-id=44.137.11.158 /routing bgp network add network=44.137.11.144/28 /routing bgp peer add in-filter=hamnet-in name=gw-44-137 nexthop-choice=force-self out-filter=\ hamnet-out remote-address=44.137.61.254 remote-as=4220406100 ttl=1 \ update-source=l2tp-241 /routing filter add bgp-communities=44137:10050 chain=hamnet-in set-bgp-local-pref=50 add bgp-communities=44137:10200 chain=hamnet-in set-bgp-weight=200 add action=accept chain=hamnet-in prefix=44.0.0.0/8 prefix-length=8-32 add action=accept bgp-as-path=4220406100 chain=hamnet-in prefix=0.0.0.0/0 add action=discard chain=hamnet-in add action=accept chain=hamnet-out prefix=44.0.0.0/8 prefix-length=8-32 add action=accept bgp-as-path=4220406100 chain=hamnet-out prefix=0.0.0.0/0 add action=discard chain=hamnet-out
That is all! With this configuration, that user connects to our VPN server with L2TP/IPsec which passes NAT and can be on a dynamic address, advertises the local network and receives the routes. This can be copied to another user and just be modified for the different user,password,AS number, router ID and local network. This is the text version of the configuration, it can be modified in a GUI when desired.
Sure you can keep saying "but my 70+ years old users don't understand it and they have their JNOS box running IPIP so they don't want to change that" but do you really think this can be used as a reason to keep everything the same and not to allow others to join much more easily? That is like saying the new hams should learn CW because the old ones also did, and the new digital modes (e.g. FT-8) are evil because the CW operators don't understand them.
Rob
Rob;
On Sun, 2019-07-21 at 09:30 +0200, Rob Janssen via 44Net wrote:
Do you really think that the abundancy of elderly users in the amateur radio community is to be used as a reason not to change anything anymore until they all are dead? Should there be no development anymore just because these people cannot learn? Should we all stand still just because of that?
That's not what I said at all.
That is a very narrowminded view. The fact that you could make it work does not mean that it works for everyone. We sometimes see the struggles here when people try to join, and I can tell you that joining the system I propose (and that we have had running here for several years, and is running in some other regions as well) is much easier to join.
If you reread what I wrote and understood the principle of the message what I said was that we shouldn't "eliminate" what's already there as far as connectivity for those who may or may not understand what it is we do. I did not say HALT, do not go further at all. I did suggest that we don't create a "tower of babel" effect as they've done with digital voice repeaters now. I can't understand how this is "narrow minded".
One thing a lot of end user points will always suffer regardless of the methods of routing will be that of their ISPs edge router whether they're using VPN, IPIP, etc. If they have no link to their ISP, the rest is all moot.
We need to keep what we do in the most layman's of terms so those who are trying to learn can understand what it is we're doing, what we're looking to do, and what our goals are. Often we all forget that many on this list know terminologies of certain things that doesn't mean that those on amprnet who are NOT on this list also do. That also was apparently another of my narrow minded points that was missed.
Please,
Sorry to interfere in the discussion but could you use more simples words and grammar ?
It's difficult for non-English speakers to follow the discussion Even with google or Reverso translation :-)
-- F1SXO Frédéric ZULIAN
Le dim. 21 juil. 2019 à 18:49, Brian via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org a écrit :
Rob;
On Sun, 2019-07-21 at 09:30 +0200, Rob Janssen via 44Net wrote:
Do you really think that the abundancy of elderly users in the amateur
radio
community is to be used as a reason not to change anything anymore until they all are dead? Should there be no development anymore just because these people cannot learn? Should we all stand still just because of that?
That's not what I said at all.
That is a very narrowminded view. The fact that you could make it work does not mean that it works for everyone. We sometimes see the struggles here
when
people try to join, and I can tell you that joining the system I propose (and that we have had running here for several years, and is running in some other regions as well) is much easier to join.
If you reread what I wrote and understood the principle of the message what I said was that we shouldn't "eliminate" what's already there as far as connectivity for those who may or may not understand what it is we do. I did not say HALT, do not go further at all. I did suggest that we don't create a "tower of babel" effect as they've done with digital voice repeaters now. I can't understand how this is "narrow minded".
One thing a lot of end user points will always suffer regardless of the methods of routing will be that of their ISPs edge router whether they're using VPN, IPIP, etc. If they have no link to their ISP, the rest is all moot.
We need to keep what we do in the most layman's of terms so those who are trying to learn can understand what it is we're doing, what we're looking to do, and what our goals are. Often we all forget that many on this list know terminologies of certain things that doesn't mean that those on amprnet who are NOT on this list also do. That also was apparently another of my narrow minded points that was missed.
-- Rain is caused by big, high-pressure areas; cold fronts; warm, moist air; And the first day of your vacation.
73 de Brian N1URO IPv6 Certified SMTP: n1uro-at-n1uro.ampr.org _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
-
Brian -
Frederic Zulian -
Rob Janssen