Hi all,
Here's what I received that morning from Vultr (my BGP provider), just after a bunch of monitoring alarms :
The prefix owner has requested we remove the following prefix from your account:
44.190.11.0/24
If you have any questions regarding this request, please reach out to the prefix owner for more information, thanks!
Then, our whole island of Corsica is completely disconnected from the rest of the world ! Without any advice. That becomes really annoying.
No more comments for today, because I do not have the right words in English to tell my exact feeling. Maybe it's just time to say goodbye.
73 de TK1BI
On 18/07/2022 23:59, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
Here's what I received that morning from Vultr (my BGP provider), just after a bunch of monitoring alarms :
The prefix owner has requested we remove the following prefix from your account:
44.190.11.0/24
If you have any questions regarding this request, please reach out to the prefix owner for more information, thanks!
Then, our whole island of Corsica is completely disconnected from the rest of the world ! Without any advice. That becomes really annoying.
No more comments for today, because I do not have the right words in English to tell my exact feeling. Maybe it's just time to say goodbye.
73 de TK1BI
This appears very odd
The problem is with the prefix owner or the problem is Vultr?
How can other people assist in cases like this?
Personally, I have helped a lot of independent VoIP operators with their BGP strategy and I may be able to contribute some resources for the amateur community.
Regards,
Daniel
Le 19/07/2022 à 00:33, Daniel Pocock via 44net a écrit :
The problem is with the prefix owner or the problem is Vultr?
Vultr just applied what the "IP owner" asked them to do ! At least, they could have allowed a "grace period" (ie, 24h) before shutting down the BGP sessions.
How can other people assist in cases like this?
I'll drop definitely the usage of 44net addressing, because this is the 3rd time it happens, and I'm really tired ! If you want to know why so few people are using 44net addresses, then, here's one reason. At least for me !
-- About help : if someone here is involved in LIR activity in Europe, and can provide commercial IPv4 range at "non-profit" budget to a radio-club, then, please send your proposals in PM.
73 de TK1BI
On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 3:44 PM Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Le 19/07/2022 à 00:33, Daniel Pocock via 44net a écrit :
The problem is with the prefix owner or the problem is Vultr?
Vultr just applied what the "IP owner" asked them to do ! At least, they could have allowed a "grace period" (ie, 24h) before shutting down the BGP sessions.
We also saw ALTDB routing registry database changes for our AS this week contrary to the latest communication and LoA we have from ARDC. These summary changes are quite a shock. Not sure what Chris G1FEF is up to.
Tom KD7LXL
On Tue, 19 Jul 2022, Tom Hayward via 44net wrote:
On Mon, Jul 18, 2022 at 3:44 PM Toussaint OTTAVI wrote:
Vultr just applied what the "IP owner" asked them to do !
We also saw ALTDB routing registry database changes for our AS this week contrary to the latest communication and LoA we have from ARDC.
Could you post/share precisely (ie. diff) what the changes were?
-Paul
Maybe send a private email to G1FEF or another ARDC representative, to try and find out what's going on (if anything) from the ARDC end?
On 19/7/22 7:59 am, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
Here's what I received that morning from Vultr (my BGP provider), just after a bunch of monitoring alarms :
The prefix owner has requested we remove the following prefix from your account:
44.190.11.0/24
If you have any questions regarding this request, please reach out to the prefix owner for more information, thanks!
Then, our whole island of Corsica is completely disconnected from the rest of the world ! Without any advice. That becomes really annoying.
No more comments for today, because I do not have the right words in English to tell my exact feeling. Maybe it's just time to say goodbye.
73 de TK1BI
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Hi Tony,
Le 19/07/2022 à 03:30, Tony Langdon via 44net a écrit :
Maybe send a private email to G1FEF or another ARDC representative, to try and find out what's going on (if anything) from the ARDC end?
Of course, I did that before posting here. The only proposal was a new, different IP range, and the need of renumbering some dozens of sites over a whole island in a hurry, after the full network has been taken down without even a warning email ! Things that have been written have obviously not been respected. Hardly anyone seems to see what's wrong there. It's a "normal" process, and it's entirely my fault :-) I even received an answer starting with "LAST WARNING" in capitals...
I am an engineer, not a philosopher and even less a polemicist. That's what makes me think it's time to give up, and leave ARDC to its millions and its technologies of the past century. Fishing is probably a more relaxing and satisfying hobby than 44Net ham radio ;-)
73 de TK1BI
You received that because you continued to spam your issue to several unrelated people including me, even after I asked you not to do that. This has nothing to do with ARDC, it is just against your way of handling the issue by doing CC to as many people as possible.
Rob
On 7/19/22 11:14, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net wrote:
I even received an answer starting with "LAST WARNING" in capitals...
Le 19/07/2022 à 11:29, Rob PE1CHL via 44net a écrit :
You received that because you continued to spam your issue to several unrelated people including me,
You were in copy of those emails because :
1/ You are a member of the Technical Advisory Group, as stated here : https://www.ampr.org/about/who-we-are/ If members of the TAC are not interested in technical issues with IP address management, then, please accept my apology.
2/ You were on my personal list of people I considered skilled and valuable on this list. It seems I made a mistake. Please accept, again, my apology.
even after I asked you not to do that.
Sorry, but I missed that. If I saw that answer, I would certainly not have bothered you again with problems that are of no interest to you ;-) Sorry, again.
it is just against your way of handling the issue by doing CC to as many people as possible.
Here is the exact copy of the header of my private mails :
To: Chris - G1FEFchris@ardc.net Cc: Jann Traschewskidg8ngn@darc.de, Rob PE1CHL44net@pe1chl.nl, pete Mpetem001@hotmail.com
Please accept again my apologies, but English is not my primary language, and I may have misunderstood the meaning of "spam" and "as many people as possible".
-- The purpose of those mails was to talk in private about that problem with people considered as valuable, and before posting publicly. If this hurt someone, then, please accept again my apologies. That means it's really time for me to leave.
73 de TK1BI
On Tue, 19 Jul 2022, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net wrote:
To: Chris - G1FEFchris@ardc.net Cc: Jann Traschewskidg8ngn@darc.de, Rob PE1CHL44net@pe1chl.nl, pete Mpetem001@hotmail.com
I think the lesson to be learnt (again). Is to *copy* those emails to 44net@, because:
1. it helps to keep things civil and factual
2. it is apparent to all when progress is being made (or not)
3. is likely to reduce "misunderstandings"
Chris/Jann/Rob/Pete/Toussaint: would you be able to write a "just the facts" high-level summary + timeline of the situation. This would help to bring others up to speed..
-Paul
I don't know the content of private conversation but I found Toussaint's public posts interesting and with a lot of valuable content, so I'm a bit surprised of what is happening.
Maybe is a cultural thing? I was few years an admin of Google Summer of Code, a stipendium program for open-source projects and dealing with students all over the world. Therefore I learned the hard way what the cultural differences mean. Even in Europe, not to mention the whole world.
My advice to the ARDC team would therefore be to think twice before ending up with such harsh actions as the shutdown the entire region from the internet certainly is. Specially because the ARDC's publicly stated goal is to be really international, in true spirit of Amateur Radio.
Best 73 Janko S57NK
Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net je 19. 07. 22 ob 12:08 napisal:
Le 19/07/2022 à 11:29, Rob PE1CHL via 44net a écrit :
You received that because you continued to spam your issue to several unrelated people including me,
You were in copy of those emails because :
1/ You are a member of the Technical Advisory Group, as stated here : https://www.ampr.org/about/who-we-are/ If members of the TAC are not interested in technical issues with IP address management, then, please accept my apology.
2/ You were on my personal list of people I considered skilled and valuable on this list. It seems I made a mistake. Please accept, again, my apology.
even after I asked you not to do that.
Sorry, but I missed that. If I saw that answer, I would certainly not have bothered you again with problems that are of no interest to you ;-) Sorry, again.
it is just against your way of handling the issue by doing CC to as many people as possible.
Here is the exact copy of the header of my private mails :
To: Chris - G1FEFchris@ardc.net Cc: Jann Traschewskidg8ngn@darc.de, Rob PE1CHL44net@pe1chl.nl, pete Mpetem001@hotmail.com
Please accept again my apologies, but English is not my primary language, and I may have misunderstood the meaning of "spam" and "as many people as possible".
-- The purpose of those mails was to talk in private about that problem with people considered as valuable, and before posting publicly. If this hurt someone, then, please accept again my apologies. That means it's really time for me to leave.
73 de TK1BI
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
On 7/19/22 12:08, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net wrote:
You were in copy of those emails because :
1/ You are a member of the Technical Advisory Group, as stated here : https://www.ampr.org/about/who-we-are/ If members of the TAC are not interested in technical issues with IP address management, then, please accept my apology.
2/ You were on my personal list of people I considered skilled and valuable on this list. It seems I made a mistake. Please accept, again, my apology.
I think you misunderstand the position of the TAC. The TAC is only ADVISORY. We do not determine policy. I am myself against the policy of renumbering existing allocations before a decision has been made on how to go forward with the network, but I have no influence on the ongoing practice as implemented by Chris G1FEF. (nor do I have a description of what that policy exactly entails)
even after I asked you not to do that.
Sorry, but I missed that. If I saw that answer, I would certainly not have bothered you again with problems that are of no interest to you ;-) Sorry, again.
I just got my message back after a day because medi.fr mailserver is broken and my mail cannot be sent to it. (bad TLS configuration)
So you could not know that I sent you a warning. Sorry for that. But still I think you should not send copies of your issue to current and previous members of the TAC. I don't like to get pulled into an existing conflict that is already getting out of hand, as I have no say in the policies and no way to resolve the conflict. The suggestion to send it to this list is better.
Rob
Le 19/07/2022 à 18:43, Rob PE1CHL via 44net a écrit :
I think you misunderstand the position of the TAC. The TAC is only ADVISORY. We do not determine policy. I am myself against the policy of renumbering existing allocations before a decision has been made on how to go forward with the network, but I have no influence on the ongoing practice as implemented by Chris G1FEF. (nor do I have a description of what that policy exactly entails)
Sorry again for the inconvenience. This is IMHO a severe drawback about ARDC working methods ! A "company" that wants to be technical but does not listen to its engineers and technical advisors doesn't really deserve our attention. At least not to do technical work. Just because it's free doesn't mean we don't deserve a little respect. Especially in what is meant to be a "community".
73 de TK1BI
"The TAC is only ADVISORY".
Sorry I'm not hamnet expert :-)
Then, In case of TK1BI what's the solution? WHO could change the situation .... ?
F1sxo Frédéric ZULIAN
Le mar. 19 juil. 2022 à 21:13, Toussaint OTTAVI via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> a écrit :
Le 19/07/2022 à 18:43, Rob PE1CHL via 44net a écrit :
I think you misunderstand the position of the TAC. The TAC is only
ADVISORY. We do not determine policy.
I am myself against the policy of renumbering existing allocations
before a decision has been made on how
to go forward with the network, but I have no influence on the ongoing
practice as implemented by Chris G1FEF.
(nor do I have a description of what that policy exactly entails)
Sorry again for the inconvenience. This is IMHO a severe drawback about ARDC working methods ! A "company" that wants to be technical but does not listen to its engineers and technical advisors doesn't really deserve our attention. At least not to do technical work. Just because it's free doesn't mean we don't deserve a little respect. Especially in what is meant to be a "community".
73 de TK1BI _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Hi all,
Coming home after a hard day's work, our TKNet Atlas probe is still miserably down : https://atlas.ripe.net/probes/53207/#tab-general
11 emails in the last two days did not help. It seems I'm still doing things "the wrong way"...
I will retain : "Misunderstandings", "Your prefix validation was rejected.", "ARDC have no plans to provide an SLA of any kind" and "There is no guarantee that the IPs will remain available, ARDC also reserve the right to withdraw permission to use addresses for any reason."
It's now time to blow the whistle ! ARDC won't have to withdraw our IPs, I'll give them back. It's now official : Corsica does not participate anymore in HamNet or 44Net networks.
I will be unavailable from this evening and for the next 2 weeks. Unfortunately, our island will remain cut off from the world during that period. My apologies to external HAMs that won't be able to contact insular people with "Internet" protocols such as Echolink, D-Star or DMR. My apologies to our partners and hosts, too, which may loose parts of their Internet connectivity and/or services. Workarounds will be setup ASAP. More Actions will be taken when I'm back, including fully redundant routing with failover on reliable IPs.
The project of 5 GHz links between Corsica and France is maintained. Anyway, even if the radio link works, there may be nothing useful to carry on such links. Sorry for those who already bought the equipment.
Our TKNet network will continue its development, as a standalone, island-wide network. It will remain open, highly dedicated to experiment, and we'll be able to peer with any of our neighbors, with any modern technology. Moreover; if ARDC manages, in the next few years, to build the expected "New Generation Network", we'll be happy to peer with it, too.
It's now time to say "Goodbye" to everybody here, and good luck to those who stay :-) I'll continue reading some very valuable posts on this mailing-list. And, maybe, also, some others...
73 de TK1BI
PS : If ARDC wants to know why so few people are using 44net for their digital communications, I have some clues...
Hello,
concerning this story I took my time before answering... So as not to make the same language errors.
😉
Chris is very involved in the management of this network. I do not appreciate that people speaks bad thing about him.
🙁
Go on https://annuaire-amateurs.anfr.fr and insert "20" in "code postal". "20" is The Corsica and until proven otherwise it is France.
There are about 200 radio amateurs on the island. Lot of hams in France do not use Hamnet, take a large value of 10% of them. That would make 20 peoples interested by Hamnet in Corsica ?
==================================== Number of hamnet user in Corsica So I'll keep the number 50, you'll see why later. ====================================
================================================== ===================== Hystory ===================== ==================================================
Now a bit of history.
around the 2000s i wanted to have a little fun with Hamnet. I was looking for who took care of Hamnet in France. I find ther person and he tells me that he's tired with french users, that if I wanted to take over management, I could.
I was not very interested in management, I asked french radio amateurs and nobody wanted to do it. So I kept up to date the "French Hamnet IPs" 44.151.
One day the site ampr.org appeared and Chris or Brian (Kantor) contact me to ask me if i want to coordinate on the site the 44.151 IPs. I searched for all radio amateurs who had an IP to register. It was done
================================================== ================= 1st type encounter ================= ==================================================
People from the so-called french national association contact me when hamnet begins to be known in France. They tell me that they want to take over the management of the IPs and want to reset all. I refuse because nearly 300 french people are having fun with IPs and they didn't ask for anything. I suggest that they pass on the management of half of the IPs to them : 44.151.128.0 / 17
No more answer from the french "national" association and after a while I see appear 44.168 I asked Brian Kantor about it.
He told me that he had been told that 44.151 was for packet and that France needed more IPs... That was obviously wrong and i explained what i just explained to Brian
Brian, amused by the situation, answered me: Ah these French, they are indeed the descendants of Napoleon.
😂
There is no competition between 44.151 and 44.168 , the organization is different... see https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php?a=region&id=295 and https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php?a=region&id=631
================================================== ============= encounter of the 2nd type ================ ==================================================
Now TK1BI contact me in order to have IP for Corsica. From my memory He asked me for a /16 domain ... 65 534 IPs for 50 persons ?! (remember the number 50 up...) 😂
I logically "offer" him IPs in 44.151.20 Corsica is just a french department like the others. He refused.
(it was before the possibility of requesting an allocation for BGP)
So end for me.
By the claim of the delete of the 44.190 allocation, I discovered at the same time as you that TK1BI had managed to get its /16... He is very clever, like the french "national" association.
So... 44.151 + 44.168 + 44.190 => almost 200 000 IP v4 for... 13 000 frenchs hams I am almost certain that less than 1000 French radio amateurs are interested in hamnet... 😉
================================================== ============= encounter of the 3nd type ================ ==================================================
Nothing, no E.T. contact me. 😛
So BGP are available now on the 44 net. No problem, now possible to have /16 in BGP with Hamnet. I was contacted to warn those who had a BGP that the IPs were going to migrate. For the moment they are here : https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php?a=region&id=1010
44.151.128.0 / 24 F5RRY - BGP via AS212760 F5RRY 44.151.129.0 / 24 F5PBG - BGP via AS212972 F5PBG 44.151.139.0 / 24 F4ALM - BGP via AS64769 F4ALM 44.151.200.0 / 24 F4HIN - BGP via AS209097 F4HIN 44.151.210.0 / 23 F4INU - BGP via AS206155 F4INU 44.151.220.0 / 24 F4HVX - BGP via AS51083 F4HVX
No problem for us. I don't see why this would be a problem for TK1BI (no need to answer, I read the arguments).
In summary, why this message ? To show that the French correspond to the well-known caricature ? They look for side roads by shunting intermediaries. They protest for almost nothing. 😉
Does TK1BI represent all Corsicans ? I hope there is not only one person to configure all the equipments in Corsica. 😂
If Corsicans want to have Hamnet IPs, they will go through the french coords 44.151 or 44.168.
In summary, all my support to those who allow us to have fun with this amateur network. I think about Chris - G1FEF of course and all others personns in all countries
Let's stay in the spirit of Brian kantor.
Best regards, Ludovic Vuillermet - F5PBG http://f5pbg.free.fr
Le 21/07/2022 à 09:39, f5pbg--- via 44net a écrit :
If Corsicans want to have Hamnet IPs, they will go through the french coords 44.151 or 44.168.
Of course, they can ! :-)
Historically, the first iteration of TKNet was not built to face user's requests, but mostly as a backbone for sysops, for technical purposes (low point / high point interconnect, repeater linking, high point monitoring, remote control...). It was using private addressing (10.0.0.0/8).
Even today, the IP demand here is mostly from technical users / repeater maintainers. "Normal" users don't ever know what 44net addresses are ! Users usually ask for an analog or D-Star repeater to cover their area, but they do not ask for IPv4 at home. They already have all what they need with ready-to-use RPi distributions, f/ex, Pi-Star, DVSwitch, RRF Hotspot, etc...
That's why later iterations of TKNet evolved to something more modern, with Plug and Play "TKBoxes" (basically, a $30 OpenWRT router with OpenVPN / Wireguard / iBGP), connecting to a "POP" (a bunch of Linux servers in a data center). Nothing very new, of course. Lots of people are building similar (but different) networks over the world. But it eliminates what I call "things of the past" : IP-IP routing with hacked software and plain-text passwords, and need to open a "protocol" on the Internet box (not easy, often undoable on current ISP boxes, and often, there's no access at all to the Internet box).
Moreover, latest iteration of TKNet also offers dual addressing on every site, with both Intranet/Hamnet and public Internet addressing, just by plugging things on the right port of the router (all the "magic" being done automatically between the TKBox and the POP).
-- I said several times that, IMHO, a key for mass adoption of dedicated amateur radio "Intranet" is : - building a common backbone and common routing policies - a complete redesign of user access with modern technologies - a P2P / meshed network structure, so that anybody is not tied to anybody, and can decide to connect where he wants
This would make things easier to manage for sysops, and completely Plug and Play for end users.
That's what we are trying to do here, at our modest level, in Corsica. With anybody that is wiling to participate. And with or without 44net addresses, HI :-)
73 de TK1BI
-
Daniel Pocock -
f5pbg＠free.fr -
Frederic Zulian -
Janko Mivšek -
Paul Sladen -
Rob PE1CHL -
Tom Hayward -
Tony Langdon -
Toussaint OTTAVI