Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
Where was the sale discussed and voted on? Or was it?
What was the amount of the sale? What specific programs are now possible that weren’t before? Did any of the money go towards raises?
Lots of questions on this for sure. The above is just what comes immediately to mind.
On Jul 18, 2019, at 21:48, ARDC Board of Directors ardc@ampr.org wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
What about those who have to go an renumber infostructure? Yet alone this who where given authorities to use the space? What about other countries - or don’t we exist"?
-----Original Message----- From: 44Net 44net-bounces+vk4aa=vk4aa.com.au@mailman.ampr.org On Behalf Of Charles Wyble Sent: Friday, 19 July 2019 1:00 PM To: AMPRNet working group 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: Re: [44net] AMPRNet Address Sale
Where was the sale discussed and voted on? Or was it?
What was the amount of the sale? What specific programs are now possible that weren’t before? Did any of the money go towards raises?
Lots of questions on this for sure. The above is just what comes immediately to mind.
On Jul 18, 2019, at 21:48, ARDC Board of Directors ardc@ampr.org wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
This is a secretive organization doing this in private and not open to it's members.
Brian has run this as his own ego network for way too long. There has been plenty of back dealing and underhanded shit going on with conflicts of interest between KC's various projects and AMPRnet.
The ARDC board is nothing but self serving corrupt hams. You've proven it with this for the world to see. This was a resource for all amateurs, not ARDC board members to lord over in a back room somewhere. The community should have been involved in this from day one, but that's never been Brian's style.
The TAC committee has not heard from Brian or anyone with ARDC in years. When options were discussed about this before, it was shot down immediately by ARDC with out further discussion.
Brian, get my information off your ARDC webpage as supporting ARDC and working with it. I don't want to be publicly associated with such an organization or personally associated with you.
On 7/18/19 10:47 PM, ARDC Board of Directors wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
AMPRNet users might want to review their current firewall rules/ACLs/routes etc - I know right now my network is allowing more access from these 4 million new EC2 addresses than I would like.
Some advanced notice would have been nice :(
Josh VK2HFF
On 19/07/2019 12:47 pm, ARDC Board of Directors wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Wow! This is rather big news but has also been VERY opaque to the AMPR community. I'm also surprised that the sale has already occurred and not auctioned off to say the highest bidder? Since ARDC is a corporation, when will we learn about the sale price and how this money will be *really* spent?
The bottom of https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/ does cover a little of this but it's all too vague for my tastes.
--David KI6ZHD
On 07/18/2019 07:47 PM, ARDC Board of Directors wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
There are only 2 -3 bidders for a block of this size, an auction is not useful.
Selling if off as smaller chunks at a higher unit cost is high-effort, low return.
Leaving it site there and do nothing with it would be a travesty.
I really don’t know any of the principals personally, but I do know that they’ve cared for this block for years, put some systems and tools in place so we could all use it, and enabled things.
I’m supportive of this effort to monetize it and I’m eagerly awaiting more info on how we support the goodness that flows down from this.
I have so many words for the conspiracy theorists and negative naysayers, but I’ll hold that back and not contribute to the shitstorm.
On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 9:39 PM David Ranch amprgw@trinnet.net wrote:
Wow! This is rather big news but has also been VERY opaque to the AMPR community. I'm also surprised that the sale has already occurred and not auctioned off to say the highest bidder? Since ARDC is a corporation, when will we learn about the sale price and how this money will be *really* spent?
The bottom of https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/ does cover a little of this but it's all too vague for my tastes.
--David KI6ZHD
On 07/18/2019 07:47 PM, ARDC Board of Directors wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 7/19/19 12:48 AM, Randy Neals wrote:
I’m supportive of this effort to monetize it and I’m eagerly awaiting more info on how we support the goodness that flows down from this.
I have so many words for the conspiracy theorists and negative naysayers, but I’ll hold that back and not contribute to the shitstorm.
Randy is an network engineer working for Amazon.
- -- Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net
Bryan, I am not.
As with most things you post, this post was also factually wrong.
I used to work for Amazon. I haven’t worked there since 2017.
On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 9:57 PM Bryan Fields Bryan@bryanfields.net wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 7/19/19 12:48 AM, Randy Neals wrote:
I’m supportive of this effort to monetize it and I’m eagerly awaiting
more
info on how we support the goodness that flows down from this.
I have so many words for the conspiracy theorists and negative naysayers, but I’ll hold that back and not contribute to the shitstorm.
Randy is an network engineer working for Amazon.
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
I have so many words for the conspiracy theorists and negative naysayers, but I’ll hold that back and not contribute to the shitstorm.
My main concern is what will stop the ARDC board from selling the next 25% or 50% of 44 space? The AMPR community wasn't involved what so ever on this first sale of 25%! I guess the ARDC bylaws allowed for full control of moves like this but I sure would have hoped that the community would have been consulted and ideally, some sort of vote would have been cast.
I do admit that there was a large chunk of address space going unused and maybe a sale was warranted. NOT finding the true market value of say many /20s or larger subnets to various companies that could afford those lower costs around the globe just seems wrong on various levels. There are a LOT of companies that need IPv4 space yet they were excluded? Selling this huge chunk to Amazon for what I firmly believe is below market rate seems native at possibly suspicious at the worst.
--David KI6ZHD
On 7/18/19 22:08, David Ranch wrote:
I have so many words for the conspiracy theorists and negative naysayers, but I’ll hold that back and not contribute to the shitstorm.
My main concern is what will stop the ARDC board from selling the next 25% or 50% of 44 space?
The fact that, unlike 44.192.0.0/10, it's being used by hams?
I personally approved the sale on two conditions:
1) The block wasn't being used by hams and had no viable prospect of being used by hams.
2) All of the proceeds went to a non-profit to benefit amateur digital development and related efforts.
I am not an expert in the IP address market, but from everything I saw and heard I am fully satisfied that Brian did the best possible job in getting the best price for the /10 that was sold. It was explained to us that a /10 would be more than twice as valuable as two /11s or four /12s and so on, and this seemed perfectly logical to me.
Remember, IPv4 addresses won't be valuable forever. IPv6 is developing slowly, but it *is* developing. I for one have long been interested in getting IPv6 much more widely used within amateur radio (as well as the larger Internet) as even the full 44/8 block was woefully inadequate for doing a lot of the things that could and should be done.
73, Phil
Hi.
Am 2019-07-19 07:33, schrieb Phil Karn:
I personally approved the sale on two conditions:
- The block wasn't being used by hams and had no viable prospect of
being used by hams.
I have just seen that parts of this block is used in Germany by some HAMs. If there was an arrangement with you? I don't know. Well, have you informed other IARU Members of the selling of this IP-block? When not, Your organisation should do it before HAMs in other countries will run in problems...
Renumbering of remote locations without any out-of-band access is not simple...
Remember, IPv4 addresses won't be valuable forever. IPv6 is developing slowly, but it *is* developing. I for one have long been interested in getting IPv6 much more widely used within amateur radio (as well as the larger Internet) as even the full 44/8 block was woefully inadequate for doing a lot of the things that could and should be done.
Is there a IPv6 Block registered to HAMs? The usage of IPv6 has some problems. First a lot of software has to be recompiled or completedly rewritten, the other problem sits between several chairs and keyboards. (as in a lot of other internet companies) Some developers, admins and ops do not understand the new addressing or routing and some hardware vendors do not give IPv6 a priority in developing...
73, Phil
73, Holger
On 7/18/19 23:12, Holger Baust wrote:
I have just seen that parts of this block is used in Germany by some HAMs. If there was an arrangement with you? I don't know. Well, have you informed other IARU Members of the selling of this IP-block? When not, Your organisation should do it before HAMs in other countries will run in problems...
I was assured that this block was not actively allocated to any hams. Is it possible they're using it unofficially?
Is there a IPv6 Block registered to HAMs?
If there isn't, I'm sure there could be. But this isn't strictly necessary just to run IPv6 over ham radio. Hurricane Electric (HE) still runs their free IPv6 tunnel broker service, which I still use at home alongside native IPv6 from my own ISP (Spectrum Cable, formerly Time Warner Cable). By default they'll give you a /64 that you can have tunneled to any routable IPv4 address you like. To optimize routing you can choose the closest from a long list of tunnel gateways around the world and if you pass a few quizzes to show that you know what you're doing, they'll also give you a /48. I sub-delegated a /64 from my /48 to the Mt. Carmel HS ham club network (W6SUN) where I am a mentor. HE will even delegate PTR zones, again if you can show you know what you're doing.
Most ISPs that natively support IPv6 also support prefix delegation. They'll typically give you a /64 that you can hand out on your LAN with DHCPv6 or stateless autoconfiguration (e.g., advertise with the Linux radvd daemon). Some will give you more than one /64 if you ask, but nothing actually says you must use a /64 only on a single LAN. You can always divide it further if you like, and with twice as many bits in the host part of an IPv6 /64 as in the entire IPv4 address space, this can't be hard.
While in theory these delegated prefixes can change, in my experience this is very rare. Also, a major design consideration in IPv6 was to make large-scale readdressing as painless as possible. (I wasn't personally involved in IPv6 development but I was active in the IETF during that time and I did follow the discussions.)
The usage of IPv6 has some problems. First a lot of software has to be recompiled or completedly rewritten,
I don't think so. IPv6 has been out for a very long time. Every major OS has had it for years, and it is stable and well supported. More and more ISPs support it natively, and even if yours don't you can still use a tunnel broker like HE, provided you have a single routable IPv4 address for tunneling (i.e., you're not on carrier-grade NAT). The one ISP I use that does have carrier grade IPv4 NAT is Verizon Wireless but they also support native IPv6 so there's no problem.
the other problem sits between several chairs and keyboards. (as in a lot of other internet companies)
If by this you mean we have to convince people to simply turn it on, you are correct. In my personal experience, the biggest practical drawback to IPv6 is that it is enabled on very few public WiFi hotspots. Since many of them are too overloaded to be useful anyway, probably by automatic iOS and Android app updates, I generally just fall back to the hotspot in my Verizon iPhone. But at home, I use IPv6 quite heavily. It. Just. Works. Really, it does.
Some developers, admins and ops do not understand the new addressing or routing and some hardware vendors do not give IPv6 a priority in developing...
As I said, IPv6 is much more widely supported than many people realize and the only problem is just getting people to turn it on. I think that's simple, at least compared with the steep learning (and development) curve we were facing back in 1986 when I first began the AMPRNet project with Brian. I still remember the snowy night in a Harrisburg PA hotel in early 1986 when Bdale Garbee, Mike Cheponis, Bob Hoffmann and I sketched out a hierarchical addressing plan for AMPRNet on the back of a proverbial napkin. That's when I invented the slash subnet notation ("44/8") that everybody still uses today.
73, Phil
I was assured that this block was not actively allocated to any hams. Is
it possible they're using it unofficially?
No. https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
44.224.0.0 / 15 GERMANY
..with currently ~9500 assignments.
But that's no unresolvable problem. Just answering here to state that there is a large allocation and we do our best to move.
There's no direct bgp announcement for 44.224/15, and connectivity is done ampr-internal via ipip-mesh. Thus except for the dns reverse resolution, we expect no impact and can move step by step to 44.148/15.
The sold of the /10 netblock we are in is not a showstepper, it just makes (a lot of) work. But we also see the chance to configure things better during the renumbering.
vy 73, - Thomas dl9sau IP coordination team DL
Wow... that's very bad news Thomas and I can only imagine the amount of work required that it will be to request new netblocks, coordination, and implement the technical changes on multiple layers (network, firewalls, documentation, etc).
To the larger topic, I don't understand how such a huge netblock could have been overlooked by the ARDC! It was specifically mentioned from one of the board members that this was a critical criteria for him to approve. This conflicting address space even publicly published on the AMPR web pages (even as of 7/19/19 @ 9:35am PST)! I have to imagine that there will be other amateur radio operators that use this 44.192.0.0 - 44.255.255.255 aka 44.192.0.0/10 address range on a non-registered basis that will be impacted. That's a risk those people took when not properly registering their uses BUT, in theory, their were protected from major changes by the ARDC with what I would assume would have been an open and public dialog before any changes were made.
A public discussion of this sale would have at least given those operators a chance to speak up or at least have some warning.
--David KI6ZHD
On 07/19/2019 12:46 AM, Thomas Osterried wrote:
I was assured that this block was not actively allocated to any hams. Is
it possible they're using it unofficially?
No. https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
44.224.0.0 / 15 GERMANY
..with currently ~9500 assignments.
But that's no unresolvable problem. Just answering here to state that there is a large allocation and we do our best to move.
There's no direct bgp announcement for 44.224/15, and connectivity is done ampr-internal via ipip-mesh. Thus except for the dns reverse resolution, we expect no impact and can move step by step to 44.148/15.
The sold of the /10 netblock we are in is not a showstepper, it just makes (a lot of) work. But we also see the chance to configure things better during the renumbering.
vy 73,
- Thomas dl9sau IP coordination team DL
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 09:43:32AM -0700, David Ranch wrote:
Wow... that's very bad news Thomas and I can only imagine the amount of work required that it will be to request new netblocks, coordination, and implement the technical changes on multiple layers (network, firewalls, documentation, etc).
Oh yes....
To the larger topic, I don't understand how such a huge netblock could have been overlooked by the ARDC!
There was no overlook. Our network was the only in the sold /10 netblock. Jann dg8ngn and Brian were in contact about an upcoming renumbering. Thus we had the chance to consider the impacts and the necessary steps for renumbering. Currently, the only impact is the missing reverse lookup in the internet (inside our network, our nameservers still resolve when our internal nameservers are used).
It was specifically mentioned from one of the board members that this was a critical criteria for him to approve. This conflicting address space even publicly published on the AMPR web pages (even as of 7/19/19 @ 9:35am PST)!
It was considered and concluded that it's no showstepper. Our /15 netblock has not advertised to direct bgp, thus it has no influence outside our ampr networks.
I have to imagine that there will be other amateur radio operators that use this 44.192.0.0 - 44.255.255.255 aka 44.192.0.0/10 address range on a non-registered basis that will be impacted.
Only assigned networks are routed inside the ampr ipip mesh. Only assigned networks have been allowed to be announced to bgp. In the ampr DNS we do not find any other entry.
=> For somebody who used a non-assigned block internally (internally, just because nobody could talk to such a network), nothing has changed. Except that he might now have problems to reach amazon services. But he should have been aware that it's not a good idea to just use a non-allocated netblock..
That's a risk those people took when not properly registering their uses BUT, in theory, their were protected from major changes by the ARDC with what I would assume would have been an open and public dialog before any changes were made.
A public discussion of this sale would have at least given those operators a chance to speak up or at least have some warning.
My personal opinion is: you are right (and I miss talking about "we are 44/8" - is it the money worth? - I don't know -- we might have so much luck with it, or we may fail). But strictly speaking, we are not the owner, as Phil has already described. And yes, it would have been good practice to talk about in advance. But I also respect the decision: because only that strategy helped to get the maximum price. => If we loose a netblock for doing the the best to our hobby, I see no good reason for going into the risk of loosing money.
vy 73, - Thomas dl9sau
One could argue that supplying the market with ~4M more IPv4 addresses though can delay IPv6 adoption by X more months or X more years, because the pressure is significantly reduced. Now that 4M more devices can get IPv4 (servers that need it), and that CGNAT can take care of the eyeball side, we’re set.. No need to change. :-)
On 19 Jul 2019, at 10:26, Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
On 7/18/19 23:12, Holger Baust wrote:
I have just seen that parts of this block is used in Germany by some HAMs. If there was an arrangement with you? I don't know. Well, have you informed other IARU Members of the selling of this IP-block? When not, Your organisation should do it before HAMs in other countries will run in problems...
I was assured that this block was not actively allocated to any hams. Is it possible they're using it unofficially?
Is there a IPv6 Block registered to HAMs?
If there isn't, I'm sure there could be. But this isn't strictly necessary just to run IPv6 over ham radio. Hurricane Electric (HE) still runs their free IPv6 tunnel broker service, which I still use at home alongside native IPv6 from my own ISP (Spectrum Cable, formerly Time Warner Cable). By default they'll give you a /64 that you can have tunneled to any routable IPv4 address you like. To optimize routing you can choose the closest from a long list of tunnel gateways around the world and if you pass a few quizzes to show that you know what you're doing, they'll also give you a /48. I sub-delegated a /64 from my /48 to the Mt. Carmel HS ham club network (W6SUN) where I am a mentor. HE will even delegate PTR zones, again if you can show you know what you're doing.
Most ISPs that natively support IPv6 also support prefix delegation. They'll typically give you a /64 that you can hand out on your LAN with DHCPv6 or stateless autoconfiguration (e.g., advertise with the Linux radvd daemon). Some will give you more than one /64 if you ask, but nothing actually says you must use a /64 only on a single LAN. You can always divide it further if you like, and with twice as many bits in the host part of an IPv6 /64 as in the entire IPv4 address space, this can't be hard.
While in theory these delegated prefixes can change, in my experience this is very rare. Also, a major design consideration in IPv6 was to make large-scale readdressing as painless as possible. (I wasn't personally involved in IPv6 development but I was active in the IETF during that time and I did follow the discussions.)
The usage of IPv6 has some problems. First a lot of software has to be recompiled or completedly rewritten,
I don't think so. IPv6 has been out for a very long time. Every major OS has had it for years, and it is stable and well supported. More and more ISPs support it natively, and even if yours don't you can still use a tunnel broker like HE, provided you have a single routable IPv4 address for tunneling (i.e., you're not on carrier-grade NAT). The one ISP I use that does have carrier grade IPv4 NAT is Verizon Wireless but they also support native IPv6 so there's no problem.
the other problem sits between several chairs and keyboards. (as in a lot of other internet companies)
If by this you mean we have to convince people to simply turn it on, you are correct. In my personal experience, the biggest practical drawback to IPv6 is that it is enabled on very few public WiFi hotspots. Since many of them are too overloaded to be useful anyway, probably by automatic iOS and Android app updates, I generally just fall back to the hotspot in my Verizon iPhone. But at home, I use IPv6 quite heavily. It. Just. Works. Really, it does.
Some developers, admins and ops do not understand the new addressing or routing and some hardware vendors do not give IPv6 a priority in developing...
As I said, IPv6 is much more widely supported than many people realize and the only problem is just getting people to turn it on. I think that's simple, at least compared with the steep learning (and development) curve we were facing back in 1986 when I first began the AMPRNet project with Brian. I still remember the snowy night in a Harrisburg PA hotel in early 1986 when Bdale Garbee, Mike Cheponis, Bob Hoffmann and I sketched out a hierarchical addressing plan for AMPRNet on the back of a proverbial napkin. That's when I invented the slash subnet notation ("44/8") that everybody still uses today.
73, Phil
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
On 19/07/19 17:26, Phil Karn wrote:
Is there a IPv6 Block registered to HAMs?
If there isn't, I'm sure there could be. But this isn't strictly necessary just to run IPv6 over ham radio. Hurricane Electric (HE) still runs their free IPv6 tunnel broker service, which I still use at home alongside native IPv6 from my own ISP (Spectrum Cable, formerly Time Warner Cable). By default they'll give you a /64 that you can have tunneled to any routable IPv4 address you like. To optimize routing you can choose the closest from a long list of tunnel gateways around the world and if you pass a few quizzes to show that you know what you're doing, they'll also give you a /48. I sub-delegated a /64 from my /48 to the Mt. Carmel HS ham club network (W6SUN) where I am a mentor. HE will even delegate PTR zones, again if you can show you know what you're doing.
IPv6 was discussed in detail a year or two ago in here. The consensus was that a 44net like block was unnecessary and may even cause issues. Instead it was proposed that hams use parts of their (in many cases) existing IPv6 allocation, and the subnets reserved for ham radio use go into database that can be used to generate firewall rules. For example, I have a /56 allocated by my ISP, but I'm currently only using one /64. I will eventually use a couple of /64s for other things as IoT and smart devices become more commonplace, but the vast majority will be unused. I can allocate one or more of those to ham radio use. Similarly, those who get tunnels from he.net will have more than ample address space to allocate for ham radio.
As hams are supposed to be leaders in technology, I would like to see IPv6 adopted as much as possible. Like the wider world, there's no reason we can't run dual stack alongside our 44.x IPv4 addresses.
Most ISPs that natively support IPv6 also support prefix delegation. They'll typically give you a /64 that you can hand out on your LAN with DHCPv6 or stateless autoconfiguration (e.g., advertise with the Linux radvd daemon). Some will give you more than one /64 if you ask, but nothing actually says you must use a /64 only on a single LAN. You can always divide it further if you like, and with twice as many bits in the host part of an IPv6 /64 as in the entire IPv4 address space, this can't be hard.
I think you'd have to use static addressing or DHCPv6 to assign addresses if you split a /64 but don't quote me on that. ;)
While in theory these delegated prefixes can change, in my experience this is very rare. Also, a major design consideration in IPv6 was to make large-scale readdressing as painless as possible. (I wasn't personally involved in IPv6 development but I was active in the IETF during that time and I did follow the discussions.)
My native prefix is static, that is an option that my ISP offers for a small fee.
The usage of IPv6 has some problems. First a lot of software has to be recompiled or completedly rewritten,
I don't think so. IPv6 has been out for a very long time. Every major OS has had it for years, and it is stable and well supported. More and more ISPs support it natively, and even if yours don't you can still use a tunnel broker like HE, provided you have a single routable IPv4 address for tunneling (i.e., you're not on carrier-grade NAT). The one ISP I use that does have carrier grade IPv4 NAT is Verizon Wireless but they also support native IPv6 so there's no problem.
Pretty much all my mainstream software (web browser, email client, etc) supports IPv6 and it all "just works". As for getting addresses, if you're stuck behind CGN with no IPv6, there are ways to get an IPv6 address to you. Old favourites like OpenVPN can do it, if you have a VPS or know someone who can route a block to you.
the other problem sits between several chairs and keyboards. (as in a lot of other internet companies)
If by this you mean we have to convince people to simply turn it on, you are correct. In my personal experience, the biggest practical drawback to IPv6 is that it is enabled on very few public WiFi hotspots. Since many of them are too overloaded to be useful anyway, probably by automatic iOS and Android app updates, I generally just fall back to the hotspot in my Verizon iPhone. But at home, I use IPv6 quite heavily. It. Just. Works. Really, it does.
As do I, and same thing. It just works, it's only if I look up what address I'm connecting to that I can tell if I'm running IPv4 or IPv6.
Some developers, admins and ops do not understand the new addressing or routing and some hardware vendors do not give IPv6 a priority in developing...
As I said, IPv6 is much more widely supported than many people realize and the only problem is just getting people to turn it on. I think
Australia still lags behind at the ISP customer level, but there are ISPs (like mine!) who offer IPv6 and have it enabled by default. Pity they don't enable it by default on the routers they provide. Easily done fr us tech people though. If IPv6 is on ovver, I will enable it on both my equipment and those of others I help out.
Concur
We have tunnel Brooker /48 with a /48 from my hosting provider. A /48 can be split into numerous /56. I am yet to find anyone to day they filled a /64 yet alone /56 or a /48
Sam
Sent from MailDroid
-----Original Message----- From: Tony Langdon vk3jed@vkradio.com To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Fri., 19 Jul. 2019 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [44net] AMPRNet Address Sale
On 19/07/19 17:26, Phil Karn wrote:
Is there a IPv6 Block registered to HAMs?
If there isn't, I'm sure there could be. But this isn't strictly necessary just to run IPv6 over ham radio. Hurricane Electric (HE) still runs their free IPv6 tunnel broker service, which I still use at home alongside native IPv6 from my own ISP (Spectrum Cable, formerly Time Warner Cable). By default they'll give you a /64 that you can have tunneled to any routable IPv4 address you like. To optimize routing you can choose the closest from a long list of tunnel gateways around the world and if you pass a few quizzes to show that you know what you're doing, they'll also give you a /48. I sub-delegated a /64 from my /48 to the Mt. Carmel HS ham club network (W6SUN) where I am a mentor. HE will even delegate PTR zones, again if you can show you know what you're doing.
IPv6 was discussed in detail a year or two ago in here. The consensus was that a 44net like block was unnecessary and may even cause issues. Instead it was proposed that hams use parts of their (in many cases) existing IPv6 allocation, and the subnets reserved for ham radio use go into database that can be used to generate firewall rules. For example, I have a /56 allocated by my ISP, but I'm currently only using one /64. I will eventually use a couple of /64s for other things as IoT and smart devices become more commonplace, but the vast majority will be unused. I can allocate one or more of those to ham radio use. Similarly, those who get tunnels from he.net will have more than ample address space to allocate for ham radio.
As hams are supposed to be leaders in technology, I would like to see IPv6 adopted as much as possible. Like the wider world, there's no reason we can't run dual stack alongside our 44.x IPv4 addresses.
Most ISPs that natively support IPv6 also support prefix delegation. They'll typically give you a /64 that you can hand out on your LAN with DHCPv6 or stateless autoconfiguration (e.g., advertise with the Linux radvd daemon). Some will give you more than one /64 if you ask, but nothing actually says you must use a /64 only on a single LAN. You can always divide it further if you like, and with twice as many bits in the host part of an IPv6 /64 as in the entire IPv4 address space, this can't be hard.
I think you'd have to use static addressing or DHCPv6 to assign addresses if you split a /64 but don't quote me on that. ;)
While in theory these delegated prefixes can change, in my experience this is very rare. Also, a major design consideration in IPv6 was to make large-scale readdressing as painless as possible. (I wasn't personally involved in IPv6 development but I was active in the IETF during that time and I did follow the discussions.)
My native prefix is static, that is an option that my ISP offers for a small fee.
The usage of IPv6 has some problems. First a lot of software has to be recompiled or completedly rewritten,
I don't think so. IPv6 has been out for a very long time. Every major OS has had it for years, and it is stable and well supported. More and more ISPs support it natively, and even if yours don't you can still use a tunnel broker like HE, provided you have a single routable IPv4 address for tunneling (i.e., you're not on carrier-grade NAT). The one ISP I use that does have carrier grade IPv4 NAT is Verizon Wireless but they also support native IPv6 so there's no problem.
Pretty much all my mainstream software (web browser, email client, etc) supports IPv6 and it all "just works". As for getting addresses, if you're stuck behind CGN with no IPv6, there are ways to get an IPv6 address to you. Old favourites like OpenVPN can do it, if you have a VPS or know someone who can route a block to you.
the other problem sits between several chairs and keyboards. (as in a lot of other internet companies)
If by this you mean we have to convince people to simply turn it on, you are correct. In my personal experience, the biggest practical drawback to IPv6 is that it is enabled on very few public WiFi hotspots. Since many of them are too overloaded to be useful anyway, probably by automatic iOS and Android app updates, I generally just fall back to the hotspot in my Verizon iPhone. But at home, I use IPv6 quite heavily. It. Just. Works. Really, it does.
As do I, and same thing. It just works, it's only if I look up what address I'm connecting to that I can tell if I'm running IPv4 or IPv6.
Some developers, admins and ops do not understand the new addressing or routing and some hardware vendors do not give IPv6 a priority in developing...
As I said, IPv6 is much more widely supported than many people realize and the only problem is just getting people to turn it on. I think
Australia still lags behind at the ISP customer level, but there are ISPs (like mine!) who offer IPv6 and have it enabled by default. Pity they don't enable it by default on the routers they provide. Easily done fr us tech people though. If IPv6 is on ovver, I will enable it on both my equipment and those of others I help out.
-----Original Message----- From: 44Net [mailto:44net-bounces+jim=photojim.ca@mailman.ampr.org] On Behalf Of vk4aa@vk4aa.com.au Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 2:36 AM To: AMPRNet working group 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: Re: [44net] AMPRNet Address Sale
We have tunnel Brooker /48 with a /48 from my hosting provider. A /48 can
be split into numerous /56. I am yet to find anyone to day they filled a /64 yet alone /56 or a /48
A /64 is, if you use stateless autoconfiguration (which is recommended IPv6 practice), simultaneously "full" and "roomy". It is designed to allow all Ethernet devices to receive a unique IP address, and have some overflow for manual numbering (e.g. of routers). Until we exhaust MAC addresses of Ethernet devices, it literally can't run out of addresses.
It's one of the things I really like about IPv6. But we digress from the main topic.
73 Jim VE5EV
On 7/19/19 01:04, Tony Langdon wrote:
IPv6 was discussed in detail a year or two ago in here. The consensus was that a 44net like block was unnecessary and may even cause issues. Instead it was proposed that hams use parts of their (in many cases) existing IPv6 allocation, and the subnets reserved for ham radio use go into database that can be used to generate firewall rules.
Yes, that's exactly my thinking too.
As hams are supposed to be leaders in technology, I would like to see IPv6 adopted as much as possible. Like the wider world, there's no reason we can't run dual stack alongside our 44.x IPv4 addresses.
Yup. What you said.
I think you'd have to use static addressing or DHCPv6 to assign addresses if you split a /64 but don't quote me on that. ;)
Probably. I'm a fan of stateless autoconfiguration mainly because It Just Works, but DHCPv6 isn't that hard either.
I haven't looked, but I don't see any fundamental reason why stateless autoconfiguration can't be used with smaller host fields (particularly one only 48 bits wide).
Pretty much all my mainstream software (web browser, email client, etc) supports IPv6 and it all "just works". As for getting addresses, if you're stuck behind CGN with no IPv6, there are ways to get an IPv6 address to you. Old favourites like OpenVPN can do it, if you have a VPS or know someone who can route a block to you.
Side question: do you know a good public VPN provider who supports IPv6? I'd like to recommend one to those who are stuck behind CGNs or can't otherwise use HE's tunnel broker.
As do I, and same thing. It just works, it's only if I look up what address I'm connecting to that I can tell if I'm running IPv4 or IPv6.
Right. And having both IPv4 and IPv6 has saved my bacon more than once. E.g., if I do something remotely that accidentally breaks an IPv4 interface address, firewall rule or routing entry, I can often get back in with IPv6 and fix the problem. Or vice versa.
The requirement that every interface support multiple IPv6 addresses can also come in very handy here. It's one of the reasons I still use my HE tunnels alongside native Spectrum IPv6 addresses.
Australia still lags behind at the ISP customer level, but there are ISPs (like mine!) who offer IPv6 and have it enabled by default. Pity they don't enable it by default on the routers they provide. Easily done fr us tech people though. If IPv6 is on ovver, I will enable it on both my equipment and those of others I help out.
I have long built all my own routers from scratch with Linux, so I don't closely track commercially available home routers. But I'm pleased to see that the newer ones among friends and family members do support IPv6 -- but only if it's enabled. Often the only real problem is getting the firewall rules set properly since by default many disable inbound sessions to provide the same sort of false security as IPv4 NAT...
Phil
On 19/07/19 19:01, Phil Karn wrote:
On 7/19/19 01:04, Tony Langdon wrote:
IPv6 was discussed in detail a year or two ago in here. The consensus was that a 44net like block was unnecessary and may even cause issues. Instead it was proposed that hams use parts of their (in many cases) existing IPv6 allocation, and the subnets reserved for ham radio use go into database that can be used to generate firewall rules.
Yes, that's exactly my thinking too.
I think you were a part of those discussions, so that would stand to reason.
As hams are supposed to be leaders in technology, I would like to see IPv6 adopted as much as possible. Like the wider world, there's no reason we can't run dual stack alongside our 44.x IPv4 addresses.
Yup. What you said.
I think you'd have to use static addressing or DHCPv6 to assign addresses if you split a /64 but don't quote me on that. ;)
Probably. I'm a fan of stateless autoconfiguration mainly because It Just Works, but DHCPv6 isn't that hard either.
I like SLAAC for the same reason. :)
I haven't looked, but I don't see any fundamental reason why stateless autoconfiguration can't be used with smaller host fields (particularly one only 48 bits wide).
I could be wrong, but I thought the whole SLAAC standard was based around having a 64 bit subnet to play with.
Side question: do you know a good public VPN provider who supports IPv6? I'd like to recommend one to those who are stuck behind CGNs or can't otherwise use HE's tunnel broker.
No, I tend to be a self service kinda guy when it comes to VPNs. But for hobbyists (at least in Australia), it might be worth joining APANA and using the SA region's VPN service. When I got my VPN (for carrying extra IPv4 addresses), they did offer IPv6 as well, but I declined, because I already had native IPv6 feeds and multihoming isn't something I wanted to get into. I know they have native IPv6 available their end, and it should be a /56.
Could also see what we could do with ZeroTier. I've been using that to create private virtual LANs, but haven't tried bridging it to a real LAN yet (it can be done and is documented).
As do I, and same thing. It just works, it's only if I look up what address I'm connecting to that I can tell if I'm running IPv4 or IPv6.
Right. And having both IPv4 and IPv6 has saved my bacon more than once. E.g., if I do something remotely that accidentally breaks an IPv4 interface address, firewall rule or routing entry, I can often get back in with IPv6 and fix the problem. Or vice versa.
Yep, been there, done that! :D
The requirement that every interface support multiple IPv6 addresses can also come in very handy here. It's one of the reasons I still use my HE tunnels alongside native Spectrum IPv6 addresses.
Good point. I used to do that with a SiXXS tunnel that I had on my VPS, so I could rack up my brownie point. That tunnel stayed up until SiXXS closed down, even though the VPS got native IPv6 shortly afterwards.
From memory, I had to do a little policy routing to ensure that the
traffic went out the correct route for the packet's source address, so I didn't fall foul of any egress filtering that might be in use upstream.
Australia still lags behind at the ISP customer level, but there are ISPs (like mine!) who offer IPv6 and have it enabled by default. Pity they don't enable it by default on the routers they provide. Easily done fr us tech people though. If IPv6 is on ovver, I will enable it on both my equipment and those of others I help out.
I have long built all my own routers from scratch with Linux, so I don't closely track commercially available home routers. But I'm pleased to see that the newer ones among friends and family members do support IPv6 -- but only if it's enabled. Often the only real problem is getting the firewall rules set properly since by default many disable inbound sessions to provide the same sort of false security as IPv4 NAT...
Yes, that is standard with home routers. Mine disables IPv4 inbound by default, but I can either open ports or remove the filter entirely for specific IPs. Unfortunately, I don't think I can do a whole block, other than downstream /64s that are part of my /56. So far that hasn't been an issue for me. I have dropped the filter for a number of my hosts (all Linux). My Windows host just has any ports I want open. I could probably open that up too (it does have its own firewall), but I don't like exposing Windows unnecessarily. ;)
On 19 Jul 2019, at 07:33, Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
- The block wasn't being used by hams and had no viable prospect of
being used by hams.
Frankly I always considered a /8 allocation quite an overkill. Moreover, I was wondering when some corporation would appropiate them using some legal cunning. So well, given both conditions it's not that bad.
- All of the proceeds went to a non-profit to benefit amateur digital
development and related efforts.
Let me propose you an idea although it's an off-topic in this list. We have a serious problem in amateur radio regarding digital development. It is software quality, platform independence and openness.
Except for some really briliant exceptions such as the WSJT saga, most of the software is written exclusively for Windows, it's quite poor quality and the documentation is appalling.
What about an ambitious campaign to educate and support development teams, even directly coordinating some development efforts when possible and needed? The goals, as I said, would be better software quality, platform independence, and better documentation. The goal would be to reach a maturity level comparable to other open source projects.
A particular example of a project I would like to be addressed is ARDOP/Winmor, etc.
https://www.winlink.org/content/ardop_overview
73,
Borja - EA2EKH
<$0.02>
I have mixed feelings on this, not so much that the /10 was sold - I also saw no real need for amprnet to hold onto such a large unused block when something positive could be done with it. From a ham software developer's point of view however and to WHOM it was sold to I have some issues to which I'll explain:
First I'll tackle to whom it was sold: Daily my logwatch is filled with botnet attacks from Amazon! They ignore reports when you file them... not very good business practice IMHO. They're the #1 offender I see to my block with botnet attacks in the USA. To help them expand is also by action promoting botnet attacks! Not good. By not selling to them would help squeeze their space and perhaps by default help squash some of these botnets that they let run wild within their datacenters.
Secondly, as a software developer I have a ruleset in my software that allows for specific things based on the subnet of 44.0.0.0/8. Not knowing about this ahead of time and preparing for when the event were to take place now leaves me to scramble to get a security release out that engages more filters for 44-net as a whole when I could have had a release out prior to this even occurring. I don't know if or how this may affect other developers however knowing ahead of time and being *prepared* makes a transition a lot smoother and with less panic. Rule of the 7 P's: Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Here there was no time allocated in developer preparation. Very sad to see. It should have been stipulated by ARCD that such secrecy not be allowed within the amateur community to the buyer.
I know many hams who want to be on amprnet but haven't a clue on the basics of system administration, router configs, etc that I basically spend a full-time job's worth assisting almost 24/7. Again knowing ahead of time could have helped me help them a lot easier than having to scramble... rule of 7 P's once again applies.
We're in the hobby of communications and in this case there was ZERO until the "damage" was done. Hopefully this can also be a learning experience for the "board" that future sales (and I do see them coming) are discussed with everyone involved including those who are active on ampr.org prior to anything being finalized.
Brian et al have done a fabulous job in maintaining amprnet for many many years... however how this was handled I feel could have been done a lot better. Please consider being a lot more vocal to the community as a whole in the future.
</$0.02>
+1
On 2019-07-19 8:26 a.m., Brian wrote:
<$0.02>
I have mixed feelings on this, not so much that the /10 was sold - I also saw no real need for amprnet to hold onto such a large unused block when something positive could be done with it. From a ham software developer's point of view however and to WHOM it was sold to I have some issues to which I'll explain:
First I'll tackle to whom it was sold: Daily my logwatch is filled with botnet attacks from Amazon! They ignore reports when you file them... not very good business practice IMHO. They're the #1 offender I see to my block with botnet attacks in the USA. To help them expand is also by action promoting botnet attacks! Not good. By not selling to them would help squeeze their space and perhaps by default help squash some of these botnets that they let run wild within their datacenters.
Secondly, as a software developer I have a ruleset in my software that allows for specific things based on the subnet of 44.0.0.0/8. Not knowing about this ahead of time and preparing for when the event were to take place now leaves me to scramble to get a security release out that engages more filters for 44-net as a whole when I could have had a release out prior to this even occurring. I don't know if or how this may affect other developers however knowing ahead of time and being *prepared* makes a transition a lot smoother and with less panic. Rule of the 7 P's: Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Here there was no time allocated in developer preparation. Very sad to see. It should have been stipulated by ARCD that such secrecy not be allowed within the amateur community to the buyer.
I know many hams who want to be on amprnet but haven't a clue on the basics of system administration, router configs, etc that I basically spend a full-time job's worth assisting almost 24/7. Again knowing ahead of time could have helped me help them a lot easier than having to scramble... rule of 7 P's once again applies.
We're in the hobby of communications and in this case there was ZERO until the "damage" was done. Hopefully this can also be a learning experience for the "board" that future sales (and I do see them coming) are discussed with everyone involved including those who are active on ampr.org prior to anything being finalized.
Brian et al have done a fabulous job in maintaining amprnet for many many years... however how this was handled I feel could have been done a lot better. Please consider being a lot more vocal to the community as a whole in the future.
</$0.02>
Amen to that, Brian!!!
Best regards. Just a small cog in the machine, Tom - SP2L
W dniu 2019-07-19 o 13:26, Brian pisze:
<$0.02>
I have mixed feelings on this, not so much that the /10 was sold - I also saw no real need for amprnet to hold onto such a large unused block when something positive could be done with it. From a ham software developer's point of view however and to WHOM it was sold to I have some issues to which I'll explain:
First I'll tackle to whom it was sold: Daily my logwatch is filled with botnet attacks from Amazon! They ignore reports when you file them... not very good business practice IMHO. They're the #1 offender I see to my block with botnet attacks in the USA. To help them expand is also by action promoting botnet attacks! Not good. By not selling to them would help squeeze their space and perhaps by default help squash some of these botnets that they let run wild within their datacenters.
Secondly, as a software developer I have a ruleset in my software that allows for specific things based on the subnet of 44.0.0.0/8. Not knowing about this ahead of time and preparing for when the event were to take place now leaves me to scramble to get a security release out that engages more filters for 44-net as a whole when I could have had a release out prior to this even occurring. I don't know if or how this may affect other developers however knowing ahead of time and being *prepared* makes a transition a lot smoother and with less panic. Rule of the 7 P's: Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Here there was no time allocated in developer preparation. Very sad to see. It should have been stipulated by ARCD that such secrecy not be allowed within the amateur community to the buyer.
I know many hams who want to be on amprnet but haven't a clue on the basics of system administration, router configs, etc that I basically spend a full-time job's worth assisting almost 24/7. Again knowing ahead of time could have helped me help them a lot easier than having to scramble... rule of 7 P's once again applies.
We're in the hobby of communications and in this case there was ZERO until the "damage" was done. Hopefully this can also be a learning experience for the "board" that future sales (and I do see them coming) are discussed with everyone involved including those who are active on ampr.org prior to anything being finalized.
Brian et al have done a fabulous job in maintaining amprnet for many many years... however how this was handled I feel could have been done a lot better. Please consider being a lot more vocal to the community as a whole in the future.
</$0.02>
On 7/19/19 04:26, Brian wrote:
Secondly, as a software developer I have a ruleset in my software that allows for specific things based on the subnet of 44.0.0.0/8. Not knowing about this ahead of time and preparing for when the event were to take place now leaves me to scramble to get a security release out that engages more filters for 44-net as a whole when I could have had a release out prior to this even occurring.
I think this is a perfectly valid complaint, and it is very well taken. Brian can probably answer more completely, but (unfortunately) the nature of sales negotiations required this to be kept quiet until it was done. Even now, we cannot release some of the details of this sale until they are indirectly reported in our public IRS filings.
Secrecy puts a bad taste in my mouth too, so I strongly sympathize. This was a first for me. But there seems to have been no alternative. I think Brian did the very best job he could under the limitations.
Regarding to whom the block was sold, I think the problem with botnets is much bigger than one company. Sure, Amazon has a lot of bots but that's because they are so large and have such a huge general purpose hosting business.
Also consider the market for a block this large. It's not a long list. And address blocks are definitely more valuable when not broken up.
But hey, if you'd really like to go back to only one ACL entry, we could also sell 44.128/10. Then you'd only need 44/9. :-) <-- (note smiley)
73, Phil
On 7/18/19 21:38, David Ranch wrote:
Wow! This is rather big news but has also been VERY opaque to the AMPR community. I'm also surprised that the sale has already occurred and not auctioned off to say the highest bidder? Since ARDC is a corporation, when will we learn about the sale price and how this money will be *really* spent?
The bottom of https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/ does cover a little of this but it's all too vague for my tastes.
I didn't like the secrecy either, but it was necessary given the nature of the process. We are precluded by the terms of the sale from giving precise figures at this time, but suffice it to say that we (Brian, actually) worked *very* hard to get the best possible price. I am fully satisfied that he did. Everyone with any arguable legal property interest in 44/8 was fully informed and consented to give up that interest and have it benefit ham radio instead. I didn't even think twice about it.
Remember, this is an IRS 501(c)(3) charity, which means there are strict rules on transparency, how money can be spent and how it must be accounted for. Tax returns and other documents are public information.
One of the most important rules for a non-profit, which the IRS takes pretty seriously, is a prohibition on "self dealing". This is how Donald Trump's personal charity got shut down.
73, Phil
I am curious how you can define legal property interest in a block what was granted to a community? What is the basis for even being able to decide on behalf of a community that it's asset can be sold? Secrecy and community seem to be two terms that are very much at odds in this instance.
I don't disagree that there were a surplus of addresses I am just confused that to my mind the block was not owned by any entity to be sold it was just administered on behalf of said community?
Marc
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On 19 Jul 2019, 05:57, at 05:57, Phil Karn karn@ka9q.net wrote:
On 7/18/19 21:38, David Ranch wrote:
Wow! This is rather big news but has also been VERY opaque to the AMPR community. I'm also surprised that the sale has already
occurred
and not auctioned off to say the highest bidder? Since ARDC is a corporation, when will we learn about the sale price and how this money will be *really* spent?
The bottom of https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/ does cover a little of this but it's all too vague for my tastes.
I didn't like the secrecy either, but it was necessary given the nature of the process. We are precluded by the terms of the sale from giving precise figures at this time, but suffice it to say that we (Brian, actually) worked *very* hard to get the best possible price. I am fully satisfied that he did. Everyone with any arguable legal property interest in 44/8 was fully informed and consented to give up that interest and have it benefit ham radio instead. I didn't even think twice about it.
Remember, this is an IRS 501(c)(3) charity, which means there are strict rules on transparency, how money can be spent and how it must be accounted for. Tax returns and other documents are public information.
One of the most important rules for a non-profit, which the IRS takes pretty seriously, is a prohibition on "self dealing". This is how Donald Trump's personal charity got shut down.
73, Phil
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Morning all,
Well this is a thread to wake up to. I guess my question to the board of directors is what plans are there to use some of the proceeds to advance ampr and amateur radio? Certainly the setup of a gateway onto ampr is rather a complicated right of passage and perhaps some effort and money could by applied to software and documentation improvements.
Marc (2W0PNT)
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On 19 Jul 2019, 03:49, at 03:49, ARDC Board of Directors ardc@ampr.org wrote:
Amateur Radio Digital Communications [ARDC] is a United States charitable 501(c)(3) nonprofit public benefit corporation that has long owned and managed the Internet address space known as the AMPRNet.
Nearly 40 years ago, early in the evolution of the Internet, this address allocation was acquired to be used for the mutual benefit of Amateur Radio and digital communications technology.
Amateur Radio operators ("hams") use the global radio spectrum set aside for them by international treaty in non-commercial ways to improve engineering, research, experimentation, training, education, and emergency communications. Having the AMPRNet available over the past four decades has facilitated integration of the Internet with radio-based technologies long used by hams. This long term interaction has been key to development of now ubiquitous wireless technology such as WiFi and the ability to browse the Internet or to stream various media to your mobile phone.
Over those past decades, a portion of the AMPRNet IPv4 address space has rarely been used, and recent utilization surveys show that it is not likely to ever be needed by hams.
Initially free, IPv4 Internet addresses are now highly valuable, and there is an international marketplace in which to sell them. ARDC has sold some of its unused and unneeded address space, but retains a more than ample supply of IPv4 addresses for current and future use by the many Amateur Radio operators worldwide. The sale amounts to some millions of dollars, which will be used in the furtherance of ARDC's continuing public benefit purpose.
Before the sale, the AMPRNet consisted of the addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.255.255.255 (in Internet notation, 44.0.0.0/8). Post-sale, it consists of addresses 44.0.0.0 through 44.191.255.255 (44.0.0.0/9 plus 44.128.0.0/10). The uppermost 1/4 of the former AMPRNet address space (44.192.0.0/10) has been withdrawn from ham radio use and sold to another owner, however over 12 million IPv4 addresses remain for amateur radio use.
ARDC will use the proceeds of this address sale to further its mission to support, promote, and enhance Amateur Radio, digital communications, and broader communication science and technology by funding grants and scholarships for scientific research, experimentation, education, open access, and innovation in information and communications technology, with an emphasis on benefiting the international Amateur Radio service.
For further information, please see https://www.ampr.org/amprnet/.
Best wishes and 73, The ARDC Board of Directors
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