Some of the radio networks implementing AMPRnet use BGP as a routing protocol, and therefore require some AS numbers that should be unique within those networks. Note I am not referring to BGP routing on internet, but only within local radio networks. There usually are one or more gateways that are connecting those networks to internet, but BGP routing information is not carried across them, they only route a fixed subnet and may or may not use BGP on the inside as well.
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294. The first (old) range has 1023 available numbers, so it requires some registry where individual areas can get numbers allocated to them to guarantee the uniqueness of the numbers within the network. As always, the policies of such registries lead to discussion and feelings, and I like to solve that by making the allocation fixed up to the regional level, so everyone can determine their own numbers without having to agree with others how it is done exactly and how many numbers each one requires and will get, and whether they need to be changed.
Since 2009, BGP implementatations must support 32-bit AS numbers, and the second larger range has become available. My proposal is to map the assigned IP address ranges for countries and states directly to AS numbers in this AS range.
Advantages: - the range of AS numbers automatically remains contiguous for countries and regions. - no need for an "international" registry, and probably not even for a "national" registry. - local operators can derive the AS number for their region from the local subnet address. - very sparse use of the available space makes for very low chance of conflicts, even in the presence of other private AS numbers that were allocated outside of this system. - future proof as there is no 1023-AS limit for the AMPRnet radio networks. - very easy to mnemonically map an AS number seen in a table or trace to the place where it is allocated, without need to refer to an allocation database.
I propose the following AS number structure:
For an IP network with the address 44.xxx.yyy.0/zz, the AS number will be: 4244xxxyyy.
E.g. for my local network 44.137.40.0/22 the AS will be 4244137040.
When areas of AS allocation are larger, an arbitrary subnet (e.g. the first) within that area can be used to derive the AS number.
Alternatively, a national allocation system can be set up to manage the range available for a country or state when local operators like to do so, and use registered AS numbers from 000-999 within the range derived from the /16 address. E.g. the Netherlands has 44.137.0.0/16, so we can use the 1000-number AS range of 4244137000-4244137999 and subdivide it the way we like.
There may be a slight chance that some very old equipment would not support 32-bit AS numbers, but the popular MikroTik, Ubiquiti and Linux(quagga) routers have no issue at all, and there is some interoperability with peers running the older version.
I'd like to hear the opinions on this and possible enhancements/modifications.
Rob
What will you do with allocations smaller then a /24 (to different hams) ?
In our internal network we have used it as 42xxxyyyzz, since the prefix is always 44. with xxx & yyy the same as yours, and zz is a number for the n-th subnet in that /24 So yours would be 4213704001
In a subnet where you would have multiple /28 it would be like: 4213704001, 4213704002 etc
- Robbie
2015-12-09 11:09 GMT+01:00 Rob Janssen pe1chl@amsat.org:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ Some of the radio networks implementing AMPRnet use BGP as a routing protocol, and therefore require some AS numbers that should be unique within those networks. Note I am not referring to BGP routing on internet, but only within local radio networks. There usually are one or more gateways that are connecting those networks to internet, but BGP routing information is not carried across them, they only route a fixed subnet and may or may not use BGP on the inside as well.
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294. The first (old) range has 1023 available numbers, so it requires some registry where individual areas can get numbers allocated to them to guarantee the uniqueness of the numbers within the network. As always, the policies of such registries lead to discussion and feelings, and I like to solve that by making the allocation fixed up to the regional level, so everyone can determine their own numbers without having to agree with others how it is done exactly and how many numbers each one requires and will get, and whether they need to be changed.
Since 2009, BGP implementatations must support 32-bit AS numbers, and the second larger range has become available. My proposal is to map the assigned IP address ranges for countries and states directly to AS numbers in this AS range.
Advantages:
- the range of AS numbers automatically remains contiguous for countries
and regions.
- no need for an "international" registry, and probably not even for a
"national" registry.
- local operators can derive the AS number for their region from the local
subnet address.
- very sparse use of the available space makes for very low chance of
conflicts, even in the presence of other private AS numbers that were allocated outside of this system.
- future proof as there is no 1023-AS limit for the AMPRnet radio networks.
- very easy to mnemonically map an AS number seen in a table or trace to
the place where it is allocated, without need to refer to an allocation database.
I propose the following AS number structure:
For an IP network with the address 44.xxx.yyy.0/zz, the AS number will be: 4244xxxyyy.
E.g. for my local network 44.137.40.0/22 the AS will be 4244137040.
When areas of AS allocation are larger, an arbitrary subnet (e.g. the first) within that area can be used to derive the AS number.
Alternatively, a national allocation system can be set up to manage the range available for a country or state when local operators like to do so, and use registered AS numbers from 000-999 within the range derived from the /16 address. E.g. the Netherlands has 44.137.0.0/16, so we can use the 1000-number AS range of 4244137000-4244137999 and subdivide it the way we like.
There may be a slight chance that some very old equipment would not support 32-bit AS numbers, but the popular MikroTik, Ubiquiti and Linux(quagga) routers have no issue at all, and there is some interoperability with peers running the older version.
I'd like to hear the opinions on this and possible enhancements/modifications.
Rob _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
Hi Rob,
There is already such an allocation in use and it is based on a similar approach:
42 + <E.212 mobile country code (MMC)> +<regional free assignment...>
More details at: http://laru.lu/on-the-air/hamnet-44net.html
Marius. YO2LOJ
-----Original Message----- From: Rob Janssen Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 12:09 To: 44net@hamradio.ucsd.edu Subject: [44net] Proposal for allocation of AS numbers
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ Some of the radio networks implementing AMPRnet use BGP as a routing protocol, and therefore require some AS numbers that should be unique within those networks. Note I am not referring to BGP routing on internet, but only within local radio networks. There usually are one or more gateways that are connecting those networks to internet, but BGP routing information is not carried across them, they only route a fixed subnet and may or may not use BGP on the inside as well.
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294. The first (old) range has 1023 available numbers, so it requires some registry where individual areas can get numbers allocated to them to guarantee the uniqueness of the numbers within the network. As always, the policies of such registries lead to discussion and feelings, and I like to solve that by making the allocation fixed up to the regional level, so everyone can determine their own numbers without having to agree with others how it is done exactly and how many numbers each one requires and will get, and whether they need to be changed.
Since 2009, BGP implementatations must support 32-bit AS numbers, and the second larger range has become available. My proposal is to map the assigned IP address ranges for countries and states directly to AS numbers in this AS range.
Advantages: - the range of AS numbers automatically remains contiguous for countries and regions. - no need for an "international" registry, and probably not even for a "national" registry. - local operators can derive the AS number for their region from the local subnet address. - very sparse use of the available space makes for very low chance of conflicts, even in the presence of other private AS numbers that were allocated outside of this system. - future proof as there is no 1023-AS limit for the AMPRnet radio networks. - very easy to mnemonically map an AS number seen in a table or trace to the place where it is allocated, without need to refer to an allocation database.
I propose the following AS number structure:
For an IP network with the address 44.xxx.yyy.0/zz, the AS number will be: 4244xxxyyy.
E.g. for my local network 44.137.40.0/22 the AS will be 4244137040.
When areas of AS allocation are larger, an arbitrary subnet (e.g. the first) within that area can be used to derive the AS number.
Alternatively, a national allocation system can be set up to manage the range available for a country or state when local operators like to do so, and use registered AS numbers from 000-999 within the range derived from the /16 address. E.g. the Netherlands has 44.137.0.0/16, so we can use the 1000-number AS range of 4244137000-4244137999 and subdivide it the way we like.
There may be a slight chance that some very old equipment would not support 32-bit AS numbers, but the popular MikroTik, Ubiquiti and Linux(quagga) routers have no issue at all, and there is some interoperability with peers running the older version.
I'd like to hear the opinions on this and possible enhancements/modifications.
Rob _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
On 9.12.2015. 11:09, Rob Janssen wrote:
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294.
There is one problem. Private AS are not intended for public use, and 44net is de facto public network.
Private AS are used by other private networks and that could lead to conflicts.
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Any AS numbers used inside an isolated organization are OK as long as they are not used for BGP peering with public networks. To make this more manageable, there is this concept of "private AS" so any peer can easily filter them out if they "escape" by mistake. In our case, for internal peering purposes, the 44net BGP space is NOT public, and private AS can be used as we like.
And as long as no one intentionally peers with another network using the same AS space, there is no possibility for conflicts. BGP neighbors have to be set manually, so unless both sides don't know what they are doing, there is no issue.
Let's not confuse our internal networking work with the internet.
Marius, YO2LOJ
-----Original Message----- From: Pedja YT9TP Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 14:38 To: AMPRNet working group Subject: Re: [44net] Proposal for allocation of AS numbers
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
On 9.12.2015. 11:09, Rob Janssen wrote:
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294.
There is one problem. Private AS are not intended for public use, and 44net is de facto public network.
Private AS are used by other private networks and that could lead to conflicts.
--- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
On 09.12.15. 13:52, Marius Petrescu wrote:
Any AS numbers used inside an isolated organization are OK as long as they are not used for BGP peering with public networks. To make this more manageable, there is this concept of "private AS" so any peer can easily filter them out if they "escape" by mistake. In our case, for internal peering purposes, the 44net BGP space is NOT public, and private AS can be used as we like.
And as long as no one intentionally peers with another network using the same AS space, there is no possibility for conflicts. BGP neighbors have to be set manually, so unless both sides don't know what they are doing, there is no issue.
Exactly, but believe it or not I already run part of private network that uses private BGP.
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On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:38 AM, Pedja YT9TP yt9tp@uzice.net wrote:
There is one problem. Private AS are not intended for public use, and 44net is de facto public network.
Private AS are used by other private networks and that could lead to conflicts.
Private ASNs can be used even if your address space is publicly advertised. It all depends on who you peer with.
For example, the flagship HamWAN network in the Seattle area peers with three different public ISPs and uses a legitimate public ASN. However, when other radio networks peer with just HamWAN, they use private ASNs. When those BGP routes get advertised on the global internet, they've been translated to appear from HamWAN's ASN. Their address space is still globally routable.
Now will this be an issue for people like us that already have an asn? I can see problems arising
Regards
Sam Scafe VK4AA vk4aa@vk4aa.com.au
On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Sam - VK4AA | VK4RCN wrote:
Now will this be an issue for people like us that already have an asn? I can see problems arising
Sam, Assuming you also are using a private ASN then it's only a issue if you peer with another private AS that is not removing their downstream private AS's (Cisco: remove-private-as) *AND* has a downstream user who is also using the same AS number as *YOU*. If that happens then their and your traffic would be blackholed but only from each other unless you both use the BGP option to allow your AS in (Cisco: allowas-in).
I really don't forsee everyone in the 44/8 space BGP peering with each other and only using private ASNs. I'd imagine it's going to be small groups here and there forming their own BGP clusters. Even then so, a edge BGP speaker could then strip out the private ASNs behind them when peering with someone outside of their cluster group.
Tim Osburn 080-4633-4671 http://www.m2os.com W7RSZ / JG1MBR
You are correct, but we cant count on everyone on the same playing field But then this is a hobby of learning so it may take a while for us all to be on the same page.
Sam