If the answer to either of the above is "yes", then there is the potential for traffic which violates radio licensing laws to be carried by radio.
And
after all, I thought RADIO was what 44-net was supposed to be about?
No, 44net is a PUBLIC IP address range. There are plenty of PRIVATE IP ranges that we can freely and arbitrarily use without care or regard whatsoever, and the 10/8 network is large enough for hams to build a substantial world-wide network without further ado.
Why my main concern is with all this 44net stuff, and what we're seeing a lot of, is peoples' scaremongering and huge propensity to self-regulate and self-police to the absurd, resulting in the 44net never being any more than another reason to have an argument on some forum and then sit back on our arse and do nothing whatsoever. If this is actually going to be the case then my recommendation would be to find some facebook group or other forum to put ones' efforts into, and see if you might stir up some irrational waste-of-time argument there, because doing it in a 44net forum is likely to, at the very least, cause quite a few people to just give up, and at the very worst, have someone very concisely and perhaps not so politely explain the problem to you.
Steve
-----Original Message----- No, 44net is a PUBLIC IP address range. There are plenty of PRIVATE IP ranges that we can freely and arbitrarily use without care or regard whatsoever, and the 10/8 network is large enough for hams to build a substantial world-wide network without further ado.
[N6MEF] Steve, that's simply absurd. Go back and read the previous posts about address conflicts.
Why my main concern is with all this 44net stuff, and what we're seeing a lot of, is peoples' scaremongering and huge propensity to self-regulate and self-police to the absurd, resulting in the 44net never being any more than another reason to have an argument on some forum and then sit back on our arse and do nothing whatsoever. If this is actually going to be the case then my recommendation would be to find some facebook group or other forum to put ones' efforts into, and see if you might stir up some irrational waste-of-time argument there, because doing it in a 44net forum is likely to, at the very least, cause quite a few people to just give up, and at the very worst, have someone very concisely and perhaps not so politely explain the problem to you.
[N6MEF] Before chastising others, you should look in the mirror. I believe it was you who started this thread.
[N6MEF] I specifically asked what problem you were trying to solve. No answer. I specifically asked how many systems/services you were currently running. No answer. So who's the one who's just stirring up argument with no real end goal?
[N6MEF] Many people provided you with respectful and useful responses. But your statement above demonstrates that you're either unwilling or unable to pay attention to or learn from their responses. Either way, maybe you should take your own advice: enjoy net 10 and leave the rest of us alone.
Michael N6MEF
If you need other private address space consider... 100.64.0.0/10 as defined in RFC-6598.
On 4/2/14, 12:31 PM, Michael E Fox - N6MEF wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
-----Original Message----- No, 44net is a PUBLIC IP address range. There are plenty of PRIVATE IP ranges that we can freely and arbitrarily use without care or regard whatsoever, and the 10/8 network is large enough for hams to build a substantial world-wide network without further ado.
[N6MEF] Steve, that's simply absurd. Go back and read the previous posts about address conflicts.
Why my main concern is with all this 44net stuff, and what we're seeing a lot of, is peoples' scaremongering and huge propensity to self-regulate and self-police to the absurd, resulting in the 44net never being any more than another reason to have an argument on some forum and then sit back on our arse and do nothing whatsoever. If this is actually going to be the case then my recommendation would be to find some facebook group or other forum to put ones' efforts into, and see if you might stir up some irrational waste-of-time argument there, because doing it in a 44net forum is likely to, at the very least, cause quite a few people to just give up, and at the very worst, have someone very concisely and perhaps not so politely explain the problem to you.
[N6MEF] Before chastising others, you should look in the mirror. I believe it was you who started this thread.
[N6MEF] I specifically asked what problem you were trying to solve. No answer. I specifically asked how many systems/services you were currently running. No answer. So who's the one who's just stirring up argument with no real end goal?
[N6MEF] Many people provided you with respectful and useful responses. But your statement above demonstrates that you're either unwilling or unable to pay attention to or learn from their responses. Either way, maybe you should take your own advice: enjoy net 10 and leave the rest of us alone.
Michael N6MEF
44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
At 12:31 PM 04/02/14, you wrote:
[N6MEF] Many people provided you with respectful and useful responses. But your statement above demonstrates that you're either unwilling or unable to pay attention to or learn from their responses. Either way, maybe you should take your own advice: enjoy net 10 and leave the rest of us alone.
I know that those of us who route 44.x.x.x have routing tables from "44.x.x.x Point A", to "44.x.x.x Point B" and the 44.x.x.x addresses that I use on my system, won't be duplicated on someone else's 44 system.
I know I'd be pissed to find someone else using my 44 numbers on their system.
But, if I use 10.x.x.x numbers, and someone else used 10.x.x.x numbers, there is an inherent chance that some of the numbering schemes used might actually get duplicated from system to system.
One person might start using 10.0.0.1, 10.0.0.2 and so on.
And any number of thousands of others users might use the same exact approach.
So, I wonder in those instances of duplicate addresses, if the packets might crash because the return route might get sent sideways do to a route table duplication somewhere on either end, or even somewhere in the middle.
I know I'm not going to re-configure all my stations and convince several other hams to do the same, just for the sake of testing how to crash packet routes with numerous duplicate ip's in the chain.... YIKES !
Bill KG6BAJ
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 1:38 PM, William Lewis kg6baj@n1oes.org wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) But, if I use 10.x.x.x numbers, and someone else used 10.x.x.x numbers, there is an inherent chance that some of the numbering schemes used might actually get duplicated from system to system.
One person might start using 10.0.0.1, 10.0.0.2 and so on.
The difference here is that RFC1918 space addresses ( 10.0.0.0/8;172.16.0.0/12;192.168.0.0/16) are consider unroutable addresses and will be dropped by the first border gateway router it runs into (or sooner). In large ISP's, these are considered private management space IP's keeping the backend running while routing the public IP addresses.
44.0.0.0/8 is considered routable space as it is not included in the RFC1918 specification. Hence all of the chatter since it is publically routable IP space.
lot of, is peoples' scaremongering and huge propensity to self-regulate and self-police to the absurd, resulting in the 44net never being any more than another reason to have an argument on some forum and then sit back on our arse and do nothing whatsoever.
Derrrrr, all I did was ask for clarification. I don't remember anything argumentative or scaremongering in my request.
It was my belief that amprnet is/was synonymous with 44-net, and was originally all about building a internet-like network over RADIO, long before everyone had access to broadband etc. I was there, back in the 1980's, but obviously time must have fogged my memory. Or maybe the focus of amprnet has changed over time.
I don't care one way or the other. I have no axe to grind; all I wanted was clarification on how to set my system up.
I am grateful to those who answered my question, and I have learned that there is no definitive answer to it. So I shall go back to sleep and forget all about it again :-)
73, Paula
--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Paula:
I would like to say it's a privilege to know you.
Thank you for all your hard work over the years with Xrouter.
I still maintain a windows 95 computer running XRouter in DOS, and WinFBB on the Windows side for fun and play.
While my main system is JNOS, I hate the fact that JNOS does not (...yet...) have all the cool features you packed into XRouter.
You're an awesome gal! :)
Bill KG6BAJ
At 01:35 PM 04/02/14, you wrote:
Derrrrr, all I did was ask for clarification. I don't remember anything argumentative or scaremongering in my request.
It was my belief that amprnet is/was synonymous with 44-net, and was originally all about building a internet-like network over RADIO, long before everyone had access to broadband etc. I was there, back in the 1980's, but obviously time must have fogged my memory. Or maybe the focus of amprnet has changed over time.
I don't care one way or the other. I have no axe to grind; all I wanted was clarification on how to set my system up.
I am grateful to those who answered my question, and I have learned that there is no definitive answer to it. So I shall go back to sleep and forget all about it again :-)
73, Paula
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
well, the way I use 44-net is both promote/propagate radio links and internet links...I'm still of the feeling that the internet is and should not be the be-all/do-all in one basket...especially for us hams and even just hobbyists that are not hams (yet, heh)..I can never forget my wide-eyed interest in seeing my first arp packets figure out an rf route to another 44-net destination over 1200b rf..only to get scolded by node barons for using tcpip over rf and tying up the freq. so that bbs users had gotten slightly slowed down, lol, what a rogue I was :-) If the internet ever goes down, we have a way to actually network with 44-net over rf, albeit slowly, not many others can help in such a way on such a scale...we can provide a service if needed and set it up rather quickly, just add rf links and hops.....but I'm sure there are better protocols that could be used, as tcp/ip would be excruciating at, say, 300b HF, lol... rock on Paula and all active hams...great to see interest and discussion... Cheers, John On 04/02/2014 05:43 PM, William Lewis wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ Paula:
I would like to say it's a privilege to know you.
Thank you for all your hard work over the years with Xrouter.
I still maintain a windows 95 computer running XRouter in DOS, and WinFBB on the Windows side for fun and play.
While my main system is JNOS, I hate the fact that JNOS does not (...yet...) have all the cool features you packed into XRouter.
You're an awesome gal! :)
Bill KG6BAJ
At 01:35 PM 04/02/14, you wrote:
Derrrrr, all I did was ask for clarification. I don't remember anything argumentative or scaremongering in my request.
It was my belief that amprnet is/was synonymous with 44-net, and was originally all about building a internet-like network over RADIO, long before everyone had access to broadband etc. I was there, back in the 1980's, but obviously time must have fogged my memory. Or maybe the focus of amprnet has changed over time.
I don't care one way or the other. I have no axe to grind; all I wanted was clarification on how to set my system up.
I am grateful to those who answered my question, and I have learned that there is no definitive answer to it. So I shall go back to sleep and forget all about it again :-)
73, Paula
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 1:35 PM, Paula g8pzt@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) It was my belief that amprnet is/was synonymous with 44-net, and was originally all about building a internet-like network over RADIO, long before everyone had access to broadband etc. I was there, back in the 1980's, but obviously time must have fogged my memory. Or maybe the focus of amprnet has changed over time.
I don't think it's always been about radio on 44-net. Considering KA9Q was installed on many DOS machines to access telnet/ftp/gopher services I think it was more about reserving space so that hams could start that "internet of things" before it became today's popular buzzword. When the space was reserved, most of the networks connected were corporate, educational and governmental entities (speaking back to post ARPAnet but pre commercial internet - the NSFNet). It wasn't until the 90's when commercial demand picked up for the Internet and dotcom's later here we are today.
But we still have this legacy space.
I think people should look at this space as a network first and medium/content/errata second. What's the point of interconnection to the larger world if you don't use it? One might as well use more radio efficient protocols then like AX25/Node or FlDigi Multicast due to speed limitations.
I don't care one way or the other. I have no axe to grind; all I wanted was clarification on how to set my system up.
First place to start is portal.ampr.org to request IP space from your coordinator. The rest is some routing/encapsulation trickery.
But we still have this legacy space.
I think people should look at this space as a network first and medium/content/errata second. What's the point of interconnection to the larger world if you don't use it? One might as well use more radio efficient protocols then like AX25/Node or FlDigi Multicast due to speed limitations.
HAM-Radio nowadays is so much more then just "Radio". HAM-Radio spans almost every technical discipline out there, and is very good in being used for educational purposes.
From the hams who make their own antenna parts on a lathe, to the hams
who build and repair tranceivers, the hams who setup (ham)-voice over ip like echolink/dstar/.. and every ham who thinkers on a subpart of "ham radio" in between and beyond. The 44net also has a place here, for the ham who likes to experiment with networks, but just likes to go a bit farther then his own home lan network into something bigger. The 44net. Basically IP can run on anything, so it can run in AX25 radio, PPP tunnels between machines, tunnels over the public internet, the public internet itself, wifi, sattelite, dstar, and possible technologies to come.
HAM-Radio for me is still about experimentation. And I am from a generation where the commercial internet just began to come up when I was in my teens. I also got my HAM-Radio license in my teens primarely to do packet radio since I was interested in computernetworks. Since dialup internet was so expensive this was the best next thing for me. When I went to college I had no problem understanding how layer 1 and layer 2 networks work because I had seen all the AX25 packets scrolling by in the monitor window in my packet terminal, and in the end I finished up as a computernetwork engineer.
Most of my dayjob is still about big corporate lan networks, connected by vpn tunnels and being natted to a few public ips.
But I want to experiment with more. I want to experiment with the internet with public IPs, see what happens, I want to experiment with BGP, transit and peering. And I have found a group of HAMs who share my passion and we have build a big wireless network as our playground, based on commercial wifi equipment. All of these HAMs also love other disciplines in the variety of HAM radio. Like the OM who does most of the wifi setups and alignments used to be a fervent ATV contester on the microwave bands. So he has the gear and knowledge to measure and do things with wifi antenna's I have no clue about. And I learn from him. On the other hand I am fluent in debugging computernetworks. And they learn from me. And everyone who is working on our network has his own passions in the ham radio community that they can apply to other parts of ham radio and learn from eachother.
And in the end, what is more beautiful about HAM-Radio then sharing a hobby, learning from eachothers subdisciplines within hamradio, working as a team, learning who they are, and also learning who you yourself are ? This is my eyes the Ham spirit.
44net makes this possible for hams interested in TCP/IP (and udp, icmp, and so on ofcourse :)) We have it. Lets use it.
But leave everyone free to use it as they see fit. If you want to route it to the public internet via BGP, go ahead. If you want to close it off so only other 44net users can use it, thats fine too. If you like another way of connecting all the subnets together instead of the ipip & gateway list system, build it, propose it, show it, experiment, work together with other people. That is the ham-spirit.
Foe example, the 44.144 subnet is internally connected by wifi links and internal openvpn links, and we then announce the entire subnet to the public internet and to the amprnet ipip tunnel network via a gateway. Nobody is saying you need to use ipip inside your own segment if you don't like it. Thats the beauty about ham radio and 44net, you can experiment, and if it breaks, it doesn't matter, when you get it fixed again, you will have learned a few new things and understand why it broke in the first place.
There is no point in "returning" this legacy space to ARIN. They are not handing out IPv4 space anymore as it is officially depleted. The only way to get IPv4 space is to buy it from other people who have excess IPv4 space. I hope we will never sell 44net ip space, since we will never be able to get something like this back.
This is the same as saying we should return all the allocated HAM Radio frequencies so they can be used for commercial purposes.
the allocated 44 subnet is just as big a part of ham radio as the allocated frequencies are for our use and experiments.
Just my thoughts.
- Robbie ON4SAX
On 03.04.2014 01:09, Robbie De Lise wrote:
I hope we will never sell 44net ip space, since we will never be able to get something like this back.
Furthermore it would break our authentication based on net44 source addresses. We offer radio services only for source IP addresses out of 44/8 (e.g. access to the Packet Radio network or shortwave SDR transceivers).
Since we don't have an __easy__ solution for authentication of radio amateurs over the internet, building an Intranet for radio amateurs within 44/8 seems to be a good choice...
73, Jann
On 03.04.14. 08:56, Jann Traschewski wrote:
Since we don't have an __easy__ solution for authentication of radio amateurs over the internet, building an Intranet for radio amateurs within 44/8 seems to be a good choice...
Idea of using PPTP and LOTW certificates is not at all bad. I do not know how it is done but I liked it.
Pedja YT9TP
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I think people also need to realize that there is much more than IP to work with. Sometimes we get so locked in on one piece that we forget the rest of the network stack.
I've been thinking about this over the past few days and I think maybe that's where D-Star possibly got it right by just exposing Ethernet to a radio interface. Because then you can segregate traffic by VLAN and use Bridging to build your networks. VPN's are quite capable of Ethernet bridging which allows for all sorts of traffic - including routing protocols. VLAN's would also allow for segregation of traffic by content type so that if you didn't want global internet traffic on your network leg, you simply don't subscribe to that VLAN within the internal 44net.
Bridged VPN's are built with UDP connections but most home routers understand how to handle this type of packet making it easy to expand the VLAN's. Even if you were behind a firewall or double-nat, you could use TCP and routers on both ends to route traffic between dissimilar networks.
IP ingress/egress from the public internet would then be up to entry/exit nodes who may or may not advertise a default route that reaches the internet. Thus, those particular gateways would have to filter/restrict as they see fit. They could also allow ingress/egress based on VLAN so let's say you have a WX/Weatherspotting VLAN that you want to have access to Meteo/NOAA information but nothing else, you could do that and not affect anyone else. If you don't like the traffic or want to do it your own way, you can simply change/remove the VLAN tag or just override with a static route or use iptables/firewalls.
But ultimately, people should treat 44net the same as any other shared network. Like what is told to people on another private network I'm part of when signing up, "Thar be DRAGONS!" and the network should be treated as such.
Ok... go ahead and poke at this one... :)
Since we don't have an __easy__ solution for authentication of radio amateurs over the internet, building an Intranet for radio amateurs within 44/8 seems to be a good choice...
Jann
That is, in my opinion, the one real special use case for this system. The networking and the tools we use are not that unique and could be done with other technologies in other ways. Only here can we build a world wide Radio Social Technical community. (RST - cute eh?)
I'm looking forward to getting back on a 44 net hosted CONVERs system as a first step. Facebook (equiv) will have to come later.
73 Bill, WA7NWP
PS. I'm also looking forward to 44 net hosted email discussions like this one... It's surprising there are so few ampr.org email addresses in the threads and archives.
Thus one of the better reasons to use a vpn/tunneling protocol between islands that incorporates authentication and do peering on an individual basis. It forces you to authenticate that you are who you say and by the 2 responsible parties one on each side of the link agreeing to peer on an individual basis and exchanging keys to authenticate the link those parties on each end thus expressly agree to carry each others traffic on a reciprical basis. If you don't like the network policies or of traffic from another network island no one is forcing you to peer with them or accept their traffic.
Eric
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 11:56 PM, Jann Traschewski jann@gmx.de wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________ On 03.04.2014 01:09, Robbie De Lise wrote:
I hope we will never sell 44net ip space, since we will never be able to get something like this back.
Furthermore it would break our authentication based on net44 source addresses. We offer radio services only for source IP addresses out of 44/8 (e.g. access to the Packet Radio network or shortwave SDR transceivers).
Since we don't have an __easy__ solution for authentication of radio amateurs over the internet, building an Intranet for radio amateurs within 44/8 seems to be a good choice...
73, Jann
-- Jann Traschewski, Faber-Castell-Str. 9, D-90522 Oberasbach, Germany Tel.: +49-911-696971, Mobile: +49-170-1045937, E-Mail: jann@gmx.de Ham: DG8NGN / DB0VOX, http://www.qsl.net/dg8ngn _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@hamradio.ucsd.edu http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
On 2014-04-02 18:09, Robbie De Lise wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
But we still have this legacy space.
I think people should look at this space as a network first and medium/content/errata second. What's the point of interconnection to the larger world if you don't use it?
Agreed.
HAM-Radio nowadays is so much more then just "Radio".
<snip>
Very well stated.
Most of my dayjob is still about big corporate lan networks, connected by vpn tunnels and being natted to a few public ips.
Yep. Same here. Except with high capacity wifi links.
But I want to experiment with more. I want to experiment with the internet with public IPs, see what happens, I want to experiment with BGP, transit and peering.
Yes. Exactly. And that's almost impossible to do these days, given that you need to justify a /24 (and I think the minimum now is a /22 , but a /24 is the minimum the global routing table will see).
And I have found a group of HAMs who share my passion and we have build a big wireless network as our playground, based on commercial wifi equipment.
Excellent. Is this in the US? FNF would love to work with you guys!
And I learn from him. On the other hand I am
fluent in debugging computernetworks. And they learn from me. And everyone who is working on our network has his own passions in the ham radio community that they can apply to other parts of ham radio and learn from eachother.
Yes. Exactly. It's the community that is key. Ask for all the knowledge and give all the knowledge you have. It's how the state of the art is pushed forward.
And in the end, what is more beautiful about HAM-Radio then sharing a hobby, learning from eachothers subdisciplines within hamradio, working as a team, learning who they are, and also learning who you yourself are ? This is my eyes the Ham spirit.
Yes. Exactly.
44net makes this possible for hams interested in TCP/IP (and udp, icmp, and so on ofcourse :)) We have it. Lets use it.
But leave everyone free to use it as they see fit. If you want to route it to the public internet via BGP, go ahead. If you want to close it off so only other 44net users can use it, thats fine too. If you like another way of connecting all the subnets together instead of the ipip & gateway list system, build it, propose it, show it, experiment, work together with other people. That is the ham-spirit.
Is that ipip/gateway system documented somewhere? I'm just getting up to speed on the community and resources here. Is there a wiki or something I should review so I don't ask too many stupid n00b questions? :)
I personally would recommend openvpn to connect folks up. Or tinc/n2n (which seem to have some lower overhead). Or actual links (long range wifi on the cheap/lower bandwidth/expeditious side, ride a dark fiber circuit in region on the high bandwdith/slow setup/expensive side. ) Does the space have to be used only over HAM frequencies/gear? This space is primarily for experimentation/research/learning? Several research fibernets exist. I'd be happy to make some connections, they would love this.
Thanks all, and apologies for too many questions from a n00b to the community!
Steve,
As others have said, you can be accessible from the Internet from 44-net address space if you want to be.
If you want to be assigned an allocation that you can advertise via BGP and have an ISP willing to work with you, talk with your regional coordinator and Brian to get an allocation.
Others have different opinions and wish to manage access to their allocations differently. You may disagree with them, but please be respectful of their opinions.
At this point you seem to be the only one stirring up "some irrational waste-of-time argument" and complaining about the state of things without either proposing alternative solutions or volunteering to help make things better.
Therefore, I will be no longer engaging you on this or other issues.
-Neil
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Steve Wright stevewrightnz@gmail.com wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages) _______________________________________________
If the answer to either of the above is "yes", then there is the potential for traffic which violates radio licensing laws to be carried by radio.
And
after all, I thought RADIO was what 44-net was supposed to be about?
No, 44net is a PUBLIC IP address range. There are plenty of PRIVATE IP ranges that we can freely and arbitrarily use without care or regard whatsoever, and the 10/8 network is large enough for hams to build a substantial world-wide network without further ado.
Why my main concern is with all this 44net stuff, and what we're seeing a lot of, is peoples' scaremongering and huge propensity to self-regulate and self-police to the absurd, resulting in the 44net never being any more than another reason to have an argument on some forum and then sit back on our arse and do nothing whatsoever. If this is actually going to be the case then my recommendation would be to find some facebook group or other forum to put ones' efforts into, and see if you might stir up some irrational waste-of-time argument there, because doing it in a 44net forum is likely to, at the very least, cause quite a few people to just give up, and at the very worst, have someone very concisely and perhaps not so politely explain the problem to you.
Steve
-
Bill Vodall -
charles＠thefnf.org -
Don Fanning -
Eric Fort -
Jann Traschewski -
jj -
Michael E Fox - N6MEF -
Neil Johnson -
Paula -
Robbie De Lise -
Steve Wright -
Tim Pozar -
William Lewis -
YT9TP - Pedja