Do you have millions to fight a legal battle? On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 8:50 PM Brian Kantor <Brian(a)bkantor.net> wrote:

On 11/8/18 9:46 PM, Lin Holcomb wrote: That's a valid use of IP space. Many things are not in the global table but have a need of unique IP space. Even ARIN calls this out in 4.3.5, and the other RIR's have a policy of this. Regardless the AMPR allocation predates this and is not subject to this. Care to explain? ARDC owns the space. It's not a grant or license from an RIR, but is legally property as it was allocated by Postel in the 80's. The only conceivable way I could see this happening would be someone sues ARDC and ARDC would not have money to defend itself. Even this is a bit far fetched, but as 44/8 is worth in excess of 200M USD, it does stick out for an "enterprising" lawyer to target. At the end of the day a /8 isn't going to buy us even a couple months of IPv4 burn. If we all do IPv6 now, in 10 years 44/8 will be worthless. -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice http://bryanfields.net

Just saying as it is “private” property there is no reason that part of the space could not be leased to pay for multiple access points, VPN, hosting ect. The market is ripe the price has probably peaked and a lease is not a permanent re-assignment. Having users wards off the vultures. If there was a system of VPN outlets it would provide the ability for hams to “host” their applications at their house, tower ect. I would pay for this. I do pay for this now, but it does not have a 44net address. Lin On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 8:54 PM Gavin Rogers <grogers(a)vk6hgr.echidna.id.au> wrote:

This is what has already been done in many countries. However one would not want to connect from say France, Netherlands or Belgium, ... to a vpn gateway in the states and have everything routed there. That would give us way too much latency. The other way round would be that Americans would not want to connect to a gateway in Europe and have everything routed over Europe. You would need geographically placed POPs that can serve a region with minimal latency to and from the internet. Like we are doing today. Ruben - ON3RVH

I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space. This has already occurred on a small scale. It takes money to defend patents it talks money to operate 16m addresses. I was just suggesting lease a few blocks to have income to further the use by hams, provide capital to provide low cost pops and have additional access points in the event the deal at UCSD ever goes away. Do this while the price is high to form an endowment to run the technology in the future. Lin On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM Tony Ellis <tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com> wrote: > IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and IPv6, it > will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of time. > Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best guess > is 2090....??? > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson <neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com> > wrote: > > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 > > > > > > Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. > > > > It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address space boom > > and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. > > > > -Neil, N0SFH > > -- > > Neil Johnson > >

What I am getting at is this is millions of dollars worth of IP real estate. There are no rules defining how it is to be used other than self imposed rules. As the market seems to be at a peek I think it is worth discussion to lease addresses to some major player like Google or Amazon in exchange for POP access, funding of an endowment for future research, hardware, ect. What is the value of lets say 2 million contiguous addresses on the open market? Lin N4YCI On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 10:32 AM Mark Phillips <g7ltt(a)g7ltt.com> wrote: > "I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space" > > This has been happening for quite some time. When I first arrived in > America some 20 years ago to work for NASDAQ I discovered that their test > network was using the 44/8 series of IP's. I flagged this up at the time o > this list. Luckily for us they are using it as a private point to point > network. > > Mark > G7LTT/NI2O > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:58 AM Lin Holcomb <LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > > > wrote: > > > I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space. > This > > has already occurred on a small scale. It takes money to defend patents > it > > talks money to operate 16m addresses. > > > > I was just suggesting lease a few blocks to have income to further the > use > > by hams, provide capital to provide low cost pops and have additional > > access points in the event the deal at UCSD ever goes away. Do this while > > the price is high to form an endowment to run the technology in the > future. > > Lin > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM Tony Ellis <tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and IPv6, it > > > will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of time. > > > Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best > guess > > > is 2090....??? > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson <neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. > > > > > > > > It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address space > > boom > > > > and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. > > > > > > > > -Neil, N0SFH > > > > -- > > > > Neil Johnson > > > >

The /8 is worth about $300 million according to a local Amazon buyer of networks the value goes down per address for smaller blocks. A /24 is worth about $2000 - $3000. On Fri, Nov 9, 2018, 07:49 Lin Holcomb &lt;LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com wrote: > What I am getting at is this is millions of dollars worth of IP real > estate. There are no rules defining how it is to be used other than self > imposed rules. > As the market seems to be at a peek I think it is worth discussion to lease > addresses to some major player like Google or Amazon in exchange for POP > access, funding of an endowment for future research, hardware, ect. What > is the value of lets say 2 million contiguous addresses on the open market? > > Lin N4YCI > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 10:32 AM Mark Phillips &lt;g7ltt(a)g7ltt.com&gt; wrote: > > > "I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space" > > > > This has been happening for quite some time. When I first arrived in > > America some 20 years ago to work for NASDAQ I discovered that their test > > network was using the 44/8 series of IP's. I flagged this up at the time > o > > this list. Luckily for us they are using it as a private point to point > > network. > > > > Mark > > G7LTT/NI2O > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:58 AM Lin Holcomb < > LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space. > > This > > > has already occurred on a small scale. It takes money to defend patents > > it > > > talks money to operate 16m addresses. > > > > > > I was just suggesting lease a few blocks to have income to further the > > use > > > by hams, provide capital to provide low cost pops and have additional > > > access points in the event the deal at UCSD ever goes away. Do this > while > > > the price is high to form an endowment to run the technology in the > > future. > > > Lin > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM Tony Ellis &lt;tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com&gt; > > wrote: > > > > > > > IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and IPv6, > it > > > > will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of > time. > > > > Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best > > guess > > > > is 2090....??? > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson < > neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. > > > > > > > > > > It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address > space > > > boom > > > > > and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. > > > > > > > > > > -Neil, N0SFH > > > > > -- > > > > > Neil Johnson > > > > >

How does it work, for example, if someone happens to have a business grade ISP circuit, BGP, and would like to advertise out a portion of the 44/8 to the public internet. What organization (HAM organization) does that go through, can a form be filled out to get a /29 of something out of that /8 for of course the purpose of HAM. On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mike Vespoli &lt;mvespoli(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > Addresses are both valuable and worthless. They have a incalculable value > to the AMPR community. 95% or more of the users of this group will never > get a chance to actually have a chance to get access to a block of public > addresses to play with and learn. Sure selling access to the IP addresses > (there would not be a way to lease properly Amazon or Googe would NEVER > give them back, and ultimately lawyer up and stop paying the group.) Plus > wouldn't that invalidate the charter or this whole thing were it is to be > used for non-commercial purposes??? I would say if we open that box it > will start the clock to where we loose this whole thing. > > I say leave it as is... This is just like RF spectrum. we are granted use > of our little slice and would never think of giving that up... Why would > we think of doing the same here. > > Also. Anyone who wants server space or a place to land thier addresses I > have plenty of free space available (physical and virtual) in my Denver > Data Center.... Only for AMPR/Hams.... Just message me and we can work > something out.. > > Mike Vespoli > KE0HFH > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 8:48 AM Lin Holcomb &lt;LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > > > wrote: > > > What I am getting at is this is millions of dollars worth of IP real > > estate. There are no rules defining how it is to be used other than self > > imposed rules. > > As the market seems to be at a peek I think it is worth discussion to > lease > > addresses to some major player like Google or Amazon in exchange for POP > > access, funding of an endowment for future research, hardware, ect. What > > is the value of lets say 2 million contiguous addresses on the open > market? > > > > Lin N4YCI > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 10:32 AM Mark Phillips &lt;g7ltt(a)g7ltt.com&gt; wrote: > > > > > "I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space" > > > > > > This has been happening for quite some time. When I first arrived in > > > America some 20 years ago to work for NASDAQ I discovered that their > test > > > network was using the 44/8 series of IP's. I flagged this up at the > time > > o > > > this list. Luckily for us they are using it as a private point to point > > > network. > > > > > > Mark > > > G7LTT/NI2O > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:58 AM Lin Holcomb < > > LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space. > > > This > > > > has already occurred on a small scale. It takes money to defend > patents > > > it > > > > talks money to operate 16m addresses. > > > > > > > > I was just suggesting lease a few blocks to have income to further > the > > > use > > > > by hams, provide capital to provide low cost pops and have additional > > > > access points in the event the deal at UCSD ever goes away. Do this > > while > > > > the price is high to form an endowment to run the technology in the > > > future. > > > > Lin > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM Tony Ellis &lt;tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com&gt; > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and > IPv6, > > it > > > > > will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of > > time. > > > > > Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best > > > guess > > > > > is 2090....??? > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson < > > neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address > > space > > > > boom > > > > > > and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Neil, N0SFH > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Neil Johnson > > > > > >

ah, very true regarding the /24. okay, interesting, i was just curious. On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 11:48 AM James Sharp &lt;james(a)fivecats.org&gt; wrote: > Most carriers won’t accept a BGP announcement for anything under a /24. If > you want to get a amprnet /24 and announce it, there’s forms on the > ampr.org portal that Brian has to sign off for the LOA. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 9, 2018, at 8:30 AM, Tony Ellis &lt;tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > > > How does it work, for example, if someone happens to have a business > grade > > ISP circuit, BGP, and would like to advertise out a portion of the 44/8 > to > > the public internet. What organization (HAM organization) does that go > > through, can a form be filled out to get a /29 of something out of that > /8 > > for of course the purpose of HAM. > > > >> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 11:23 AM Mike Vespoli &lt;mvespoli(a)gmail.com&gt; > wrote: > >> > >> Addresses are both valuable and worthless. They have a incalculable > value > >> to the AMPR community. 95% or more of the users of this group will > never > >> get a chance to actually have a chance to get access to a block of > public > >> addresses to play with and learn. Sure selling access to the IP > addresses > >> (there would not be a way to lease properly Amazon or Googe would NEVER > >> give them back, and ultimately lawyer up and stop paying the group.) > Plus > >> wouldn't that invalidate the charter or this whole thing were it is to > be > >> used for non-commercial purposes??? I would say if we open that box it > >> will start the clock to where we loose this whole thing. > >> > >> I say leave it as is... This is just like RF spectrum. we are granted > use > >> of our little slice and would never think of giving that up... Why > would > >> we think of doing the same here. > >> > >> Also. Anyone who wants server space or a place to land thier addresses > I > >> have plenty of free space available (physical and virtual) in my Denver > >> Data Center.... Only for AMPR/Hams.... Just message me and we can work > >> something out.. > >> > >> Mike Vespoli > >> KE0HFH > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 8:48 AM Lin Holcomb < > LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > >>> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> What I am getting at is this is millions of dollars worth of IP real > >>> estate. There are no rules defining how it is to be used other than > self > >>> imposed rules. > >>> As the market seems to be at a peek I think it is worth discussion to > >> lease > >>> addresses to some major player like Google or Amazon in exchange for > POP > >>> access, funding of an endowment for future research, hardware, ect. > What > >>> is the value of lets say 2 million contiguous addresses on the open > >> market? > >>> > >>> Lin N4YCI > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 10:32 AM Mark Phillips &lt;g7ltt(a)g7ltt.com&gt; > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> "I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space" > >>>> > >>>> This has been happening for quite some time. When I first arrived in > >>>> America some 20 years ago to work for NASDAQ I discovered that their > >> test > >>>> network was using the 44/8 series of IP's. I flagged this up at the > >> time > >>> o > >>>> this list. Luckily for us they are using it as a private point to > point > >>>> network. > >>>> > >>>> Mark > >>>> G7LTT/NI2O > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:58 AM Lin Holcomb < > >>> LHolcomb(a)clearqualitygroup.com > >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I would see a more likely situation of a theft of parts of the space. > >>>> This > >>>>> has already occurred on a small scale. It takes money to defend > >> patents > >>>> it > >>>>> talks money to operate 16m addresses. > >>>>> > >>>>> I was just suggesting lease a few blocks to have income to further > >> the > >>>> use > >>>>> by hams, provide capital to provide low cost pops and have additional > >>>>> access points in the event the deal at UCSD ever goes away. Do this > >>> while > >>>>> the price is high to form an endowment to run the technology in the > >>>> future. > >>>>> Lin > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 6:10 AM Tony Ellis &lt;tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com&gt; > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and > >> IPv6, > >>> it > >>>>>> will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of > >>> time. > >>>>>> Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best > >>>> guess > >>>>>> is 2090....??? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson < > >>> neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address > >>> space > >>>>> boom > >>>>>>> and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -Neil, N0SFH > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Neil Johnson > >>>>>>>

Yep. For example: https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=ipv6-adoption Tony > On Nov 9, 2018, at 02:09, Tony Ellis &lt;tonyellis3.te(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: > > IPv6 is already here. My mobile phone is dual stack, IPv4 and IPv6, it > will continue to grow and like everything, it is just a matter of time. > Some of my ISP's are dual stacked, etc. Will IPv4 go away, my best guess > is 2090....??? > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM Neil Johnson &lt;neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com&gt; > wrote: > >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18407173 >> >> >> Note: I'm NOT advocating anything like that for 44.0.0.0/8. >> >> It's just going to be fun to watch the market for IPv4 address space boom >> and then bust when IPv6 adoption finally reaches critical mass. >> >> -Neil, N0SFH >> -- >> Neil Johnson >>