Well, I think there are enough examples of how to do it (also already doing it within AMPRnet), lots of people who can contribute knowledge and will volunteer to help, the only thing we lack here in this group is someone (with the appropriate authority) who says "Lets' do that!" and gets everyone moving.
That is why these discussions usually go on for a couple of days here, then die out, and nothing ever changes. We are still running the same system as 25 years ago, with only the addition of RIP auto route distribution.
This gets worse over time, as those who would like to change things see this and leave, and in the end we only have a number of old hats left who don't change anything. That does not improve our reputation... sometimes newcomers ask "why do we use that method when it is so difficult to implement and it can all be done so much easier", and the only response can be "don't ask...".
Rob
Since most of the new people that I run into on 44Net do not have the same or better networking background that some of us have, a compelling need coupled with an explanatory story should be the approach with these newbies. A step-by-step primer needs to be provided and people to step up as the mentors for their regions should be the way forward. Just stating that they are wrong, that things are easier if only they do it this way and then leave them to their own devices is not conducive to building up the ranks of networking savvy colleagues. We will all get older and die off before we get any to replace us if we keep going in this direction.
On 7/20/2019 3:40 PM, Rob Janssen via 44Net wrote:
Well, I think there are enough examples of how to do it (also already doing it within AMPRnet), lots of people who can contribute knowledge and will volunteer to help, the only thing we lack here in this group is someone (with the appropriate authority) who says "Lets' do that!" and gets everyone moving.
That is why these discussions usually go on for a couple of days here, then die out, and nothing ever changes. We are still running the same system as 25 years ago, with only the addition of RIP auto route distribution.
This gets worse over time, as those who would like to change things see this and leave, and in the end we only have a number of old hats left who don't change anything. That does not improve our reputation... sometimes newcomers ask "why do we use that method when it is so difficult to implement and it can all be done so much easier", and the only response can be "don't ask...".
Rob _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Been on this group for a few years..
Been reading all that is posting.
Did not post on the selling case cause I dont feel that my insight would be that much usefull.
Even try to have my Edgerouter X to run my Gateway. It did work. It was not as easy as I had hope.
But one thing that I did understand after the fact is that all the traffic for the 44 net in a setup like mine (ipip) need to travel by the amprnet main adress and this is a nice bottleneck. I am not bitching about the free service.. I really like all the work that been done for the 44net group.
But since the group got some money out of the selling of our common property, I think that either we deal with bgp and other nice tech to use a route that dont pass by the main ip adress or we beef up the main service in a way that we have some real bandwith to spare.
I am saying that cause what is the use of having million of IPv4 adress if we can only use them with a snail bandwith.
So I vote, that is if I can vote on anything, for taking that opportunity we as a group have to become the defacto service for the needy ham that have a project that use IP network.
I am not the best in networking, in fact my knowledge is pale compare to most of you guys..But I’ve been able to do a lot of stuff with little support on many project. I am the average ham that hope to learn the more he can.. Please help me!!!
Pierre VE2PF
________________________________ De : 44Net 44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org de la part de Charles J. Hargrove via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Envoyé : Saturday, July 20, 2019 3:52:19 PM À : 44net@mailman.ampr.org 44net@mailman.ampr.org Cc : Charles J. Hargrove n2nov@n2nov.net Objet : Re: [44net] Time to restructure the network?
Since most of the new people that I run into on 44Net do not have the same or better networking background that some of us have, a compelling need coupled with an explanatory story should be the approach with these newbies. A step-by-step primer needs to be provided and people to step up as the mentors for their regions should be the way forward. Just stating that they are wrong, that things are easier if only they do it this way and then leave them to their own devices is not conducive to building up the ranks of networking savvy colleagues. We will all get older and die off before we get any to replace us if we keep going in this direction.
On 7/20/2019 3:40 PM, Rob Janssen via 44Net wrote:
Well, I think there are enough examples of how to do it (also already doing it within AMPRnet), lots of people who can contribute knowledge and will volunteer to help, the only thing we lack here in this group is someone (with the appropriate authority) who says "Lets' do that!" and gets everyone moving.
That is why these discussions usually go on for a couple of days here, then die out, and nothing ever changes. We are still running the same system as 25 years ago, with only the addition of RIP auto route distribution.
This gets worse over time, as those who would like to change things see this and leave, and in the end we only have a number of old hats left who don't change anything. That does not improve our reputation... sometimes newcomers ask "why do we use that method when it is so difficult to implement and it can all be done so much easier", and the only response can be "don't ask...".
Rob _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
-- Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.
NYC-ARECS/RACES Nets 449.025/123.0 PL ARnewsline Broadcast Mon. @ 8:00PM NYC-ARECS Weekly Net Mon. @ 8:30PM http://www.nyc-arecs.org
NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32
"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan
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"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying (The work praises the man.)
"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Charles et al;
On Sat, 2019-07-20 at 15:52 -0400, Charles J. Hargrove via 44Net wrote:
Since most of the new people that I run into on 44Net do not have the same or better networking background that some of us have, a compelling need coupled with an explanatory story should be the approach with these newbies.
I'll +1 your comments and raise you with this:
As President and engineer of EastNet, let me go over some bullet points for those especially NOT in our country or region.
o The average age of those sysops on EastNet is 70+ o They grew up without technology and are most happy to remain ignorant about it o BGP, IPIP, GRE are initial groupings they could care less about. o Many of these guys can't even type in a URL without their hands held. o Virtual Private Network to them sounds like the evil doings of the dark web and they want nothing to do with it. o If it's not standard equipment from my ISP it must be against my contract with them. o If HRO doesn't sell a pre-made appliance to plug in and use for this amprnet thing then it can't be any good or work.
I could go on but I'll stop right there. As Charles tried to mention, just because a very small percentage of hams are familiar with amateur IP or amateur wired internet that doesn't mean the bulk of hams are or that they even wish to learn. Most still immediately think IP = wired only period and that's not what they took a license test for... and they find it to actually be offensive in regards to amateur RADIO. If it's not HF Contesting, it's not "ham radio" it's wire and they don't need nor want to learn about this... but they do wish to offer the services.
The current IPIP mesh network does indeed work... I suppose if it works don't fix it no longer applies? I'm on it and the fact you see this mail is a PoC it works.
The address space is free however I have and intend to make more donations to the cause. I feel now that 25% of the space is sold, we're now commercial in nature (albeit non-profit in label) so IP space should now be sold to the end user. Since it's the internet, there's no reason ARDC can't sell space to end users. ARDC itself isn't providing a single resource on amateur radio so it wouldn't violate any laws. (my personal opinion)
SWIP services should now be offered if 44/9-44.128/10 are now no longer legacy space but ARIN controlled. This has held me back when I've worked for some ISPs in my region getting my 44-net space announced because there was no proof of ownership for the block (something also mentioned in another list). I would guess we now have Arin services to our avail? If so SWIP should be added to the portal when adding/approving blocks.
BGP is filtered at many ISPs in my region. VPN and SSH even are filtered now as too many script kiddies are using VPN for illegal services such as leeching movies and games. Other protocols are as well and their CPEs are deployed deliberately 'broken' so the end user can't change this since much of the filters are within the CPE's firmware to take the load off of their edge routers.
So please remember the following: o your comments (including mine here) are often based on personal opinions based on your own personal environments to work within. o only "we" know what we're talking about, we might as well speak martian to the rest since they have no idea between BGP and FBI. o the bulk of those owning a license who have IP space with 44-net not only could care less about "improvements" they look at it instead as a way to exit this part of being a ham and use that time more for HF/contesting. o don't want to be forced into having to buy a microtik or any other device - they've spent too much in their HF rigs already. o would have to find or hire someone to help them migrate over to whatever would replace existing topologies... and would rather have ARDC sell their IP space too.
Again I could continue but I think you get the jist. Are we in this for ourselves or to offer a platform for hams to experiment on RF with IP and it's services?
On a more personal level, I'd just assume see it all scrapped in favor of IPv6 only and find some new purpose for NDP or the sort that might be able to identify us by callsign somehow. I know there's one idea on the table already. Why play around with IPv4 at all when it IS going to get replaced. Don't put a bandaid on where stitches belong. Set up a test bed and when all the bugs are worked out deploy it out but don't interrupt a working production system. If you did that at work chances are you wouldn't have incoming cash flow for very long.
There's plenty of IPv6 available, and I don't think we even need to have our own block. ISPs now often give out a nice /64 DHCP subnet and you can find even larger ones for free as well as I myself have a static /48 to which I broker some out to various sites within EastNet to run parallel to their 44-net IPs. Works very nicely. Many hams aren't even using 44-net IP space for their services such as D-Star/DMR repeater linking their either using RFC-1918 space or their ISPs IPs.
... but to restructure the network - besides the fact that shrinking the /8 into a /9 and /10 is in itself a restructure of sorts, the current methods of connectivity to should not be depleted at all. If anything they should all harmoniously talk together or else like with the other digital toys (dstar/fusion/dmr) we'd only be creating our own tower of babel which does no one any good whatsoever.
-
Brian -
Charles J. Hargrove -
pete M -
Rob Janssen