Well, there are some interesting comments. One being the cost of service. If you look at the discourse link, right away it says it is $100 per month, so it is not free. And if they were to decide this group was a business then it is $300 per month. Still not free. Trying to find pricing for groups.io shows starting at $20 per month for up to 500 members. I don't have any idea how many members there may be to this group.
A few have said they don't want anything that is "cloud based". Anything you get from the internet is "cloud based" one way or another.
A few years ago when most of the groups were jumping from Yahoo some of the groups talked about google. That is probably one of the worst places to go to. I, along with several others in several groups said if they went to google we would drop out. That hasn't changed for me. Trust google for much of anything? Good luck with that.
A bit of my experience with groups.io. For those who like the digest, it works, for those who like to get email, it works, for those who just want to look at the messages in the group, it works. It works well for archive and searching. A couple of other good features, it allows an email receiver to limit attachment size (for those inconsiderate people who think they have to send an image that is 10 megs and larger) so instead it sends a link for the attachment. Also, if a user is no longer interested in getting email about a subject, it allows that user to mute the subject, which means they don't get any more emails about it. Since I don't manage any groups, I'm sure there are several management tools available to manage the group.
Mick - W7CAT
----- Original Message ----- From: Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2022 06:53:23 PM Subject: [44net] Re: Mailman migration
Hey Jeff,
Great question. As it turns out, we are in fact looking to switch to Discourse.
http://sykly.smtpclick.com/tracking/qaR9ZGLlBQp5ZmxjZQVjZQR4ZGp2ZPM5qzS4qaR9...
Curious if folks haved used it and like it.
Rosy
Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV Executive Director Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC) ampr.org
On 4/21/22 5:44 PM, Jeff Hochberg via 44net wrote:
Evidently, some of the configurations were transferred over, but
not the
user database. I'm unable to authenticate and, even if I try to
perform
password recovery, I get the following message:
"The e-mail address is not assigned to any user account"
Not for anything but why not just switch to something like Google
Groups
or Groups.io instead of having someone host a Mailman server?
Jeff Hochberg W4JEW Atlanta, GA jeff@w4jew.com
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 11:03 AM Mike Tindor via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
I too have the same issue with regard to logging in to mailman. The password reset claims my Gmail address is not a valid user (" The e-mail address is not assigned to any user account ")
Mike / AA8IA
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 10:56 AM Jon Anhold > > > wrote:
Looks like this lost my digest preference, and I am unable to login via the web interface to change it - it says I am not a user when I try to reset my password.
73 de KM8V
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 10:51 AM Mike Tindor via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
Looks like there might be a little more to do, with regard to email reputation.
SPF and DKIM signing fail, and there is a published DMARC record that quarantines 100% of DMARC failures. So the list emails are going to end up in spam folders (they ended up in my Gmail spam folder) because SPF/DKIM/DMARC all failed.
2a0a:bb00:0:44::1d needs added to themailman.ampr.org SPF record
and it appears themailman.ampr.org emails are being signed with
anARDC.NET DKIM key rather than amailman.ampr.org DKIM key
Mike / AA8IA
On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 9:07 AM Chris Smith via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
Hello All,
FYI, we had an issue with the mailing list server last week:
The server the mailing list is hosted on experienced an unexpected reboot. The server came back up ok and all the services associated with the mailing list continued to run, so Nagios (the application we use to monitor our systems) did not report any issues. However, the sudden reboot had corrupted several open files associated with the mailing list software (Mailman 2.1) and the 44net mailing list was not passing emails. As the list often goes through quiet periods this was not noticed for several days.
Unfortunately the backup period for the server was only set to a few days and by the time the issue was investigated all the available backups were of the corrupted files.
As the longer term plan was always to migrate from the older (now unsupported) Mailman 2.1 to the latest Mailman 3.1 the decision was taken to migrate the mailing list to a new server. ARDC already has a Mailman 3 server for some internal mailing lists, so we migrated the 44net list there.
I am pleased to report that the archives from the old server were successfully migrated over, so no loss of data there thankfully.
The web interface for the new home of 44net can be found here:
http://sykly.smtpclick.com/tracking/qaR9ZGLlBQp5ZmxjZQVjZQR4ZGp2ZPM5qzS4qaR9...
The MX record has been updated to point to the new server, so you should continue to send emails to 44net@mailman.ampr.org to post to the list.
I want to take this opportunity to thank John - KI5D for hosting the mailing list since we had the last big crash in 2012. The mailman server, with John looking after it has provided excellent service to the community. John is going to continue to help out by acting as admin for the 44net mailing list on it’s new home.
Best 73, Chris - G1FEF
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
I'm also a user and manager of several groups.io lists. While I appreciate the service and find it well thought-out and designed, I've noticed a steady stream of features finding themselves behind their paywall, and, in general, it seems some of these "freemium" services don't have sufficient non-profit / small business membership tiers -- the pay tiers are simply not affordable for groups with small-to-zero budgets.
Some of the objections to cloud-hosted solutions in this thread may be related to these issues.
Groups.io has discounted rates for non-profits like ARDC even for large memberships it is not that expensive.
On 22 Apr 2022, at 15:45, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Well, there are some interesting comments. One being the cost of service. If you look at the discourse link, right away it says it is $100 per month, so it is not free.
That's for the hosted version. The software itself is open source and you can host it yourself at no cost.
And if they were to decide this group was a business then it is $300 per month. Still not free. Trying to find pricing for groups.io http://groups.io/ shows starting at $20 per month for up to 500 members. I don't have any idea how many members there may be to this group.
Just under 1,000 members. groups.io http://groups.io/ do an enterprise edition for $200/month but they discount this by 50% to non-profits.
A few have said they don't want anything that is "cloud based". Anything you get from the internet is "cloud based" one way or another.
Indeed, “cloud based” just means it’s on a server in a datacenter when you boil it down. “Cloud” is more of a marketing term than a technical term.
A few years ago when most of the groups were jumping from Yahoo some of the groups talked about google. That is probably one of the worst places to go to. I, along with several others in several groups said if they went to google we would drop out. That hasn't changed for me. Trust google for much of anything? Good luck with that.
+1 Google is definitely NOT the way to go IMO.
A bit of my experience with groups.io http://groups.io/. For those who like the digest, it works, for those who like to get email, it works, for those who just want to look at the messages in the group, it works. It works well for archive and searching. A couple of other good features, it allows an email receiver to limit attachment size (for those inconsiderate people who think they have to send an image that is 10 megs and larger) so instead it sends a link for the attachment. Also, if a user is no longer interested in getting email about a subject, it allows that user to mute the subject, which means they don't get any more emails about it. Since I don't manage any groups, I'm sure there are several management tools available to manage the group.
I’ve been using groups.io http://groups.io/ practically since it began, I manage several groups and have contributed to their beta programme. I have made several suggestions for improvements, most of which they have implemented. They are very open to suggestions for improvements and seem keen to keep their customer base happy. It’s not open source, which is a shame, but it is by far the best option, hands down, IMHO.
Now if someone fancies writing an open source clone of groups.io http://groups.io/ they would be on to a winner!
if we are going to move from a plain text mailing list, I would vote groups.io http://groups.io/ - apart from the “not open source” and the price tag (which ARDC can easily afford) it has no other negatives that I can think of.
Chris - G1FEF
My 2-pence…
I have used groups.io for a long time and see no reason why we shouldn’t continue using it.
Sometimes, paying for something offers guarantees and SLAs you just won’t get out of ‘doing it yourself’ and it makes sense to bite the bullet and leave someone else manage the infrastructure.
The cloud is just someone else’s server… that’s it… a marketing term to give something lesser technical people could understand when explaining the internet.
I didn’t think this group would have the same preconceptions of the internet other groups do 😂 but we are radio amateurs first and foremost.
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 17:05, Chris Smith via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
On 22 Apr 2022, at 15:45, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Well, there are some interesting comments. One being the cost of service. If you look at the discourse link, right away it says it is $100 per month, so it is not free.
That's for the hosted version. The software itself is open source and you can host it yourself at no cost.
And if they were to decide this group was a business then it is $300 per month. Still not free. Trying to find pricing for groups.io shows starting at $20 per month for up to 500 members. I don't have any idea how many members there may be to this group.
Just under 1,000 members. groups.io do an enterprise edition for $200/month but they discount this by 50% to non-profits.
A few have said they don't want anything that is "cloud based". Anything you get from the internet is "cloud based" one way or another.
Indeed, “cloud based” just means it’s on a server in a datacenter when you boil it down. “Cloud” is more of a marketing term than a technical term.
A few years ago when most of the groups were jumping from Yahoo some of the groups talked about google. That is probably one of the worst places to go to. I, along with several others in several groups said if they went to google we would drop out. That hasn't changed for me. Trust google for much of anything? Good luck with that.
+1 Google is definitely NOT the way to go IMO.
A bit of my experience with groups.io. For those who like the digest, it works, for those who like to get email, it works, for those who just want to look at the messages in the group, it works. It works well for archive and searching. A couple of other good features, it allows an email receiver to limit attachment size (for those inconsiderate people who think they have to send an image that is 10 megs and larger) so instead it sends a link for the attachment. Also, if a user is no longer interested in getting email about a subject, it allows that user to mute the subject, which means they don't get any more emails about it. Since I don't manage any groups, I'm sure there are several management tools available to manage the group.
I’ve been using groups.io practically since it began, I manage several groups and have contributed to their beta programme. I have made several suggestions for improvements, most of which they have implemented. They are very open to suggestions for improvements and seem keen to keep their customer base happy. It’s not open source, which is a shame, but it is by far the best option, hands down, IMHO.
Now if someone fancies writing an open source clone of groups.io they would be on to a winner!
if we are going to move from a plain text mailing list, I would vote groups.io - apart from the “not open source” and the price tag (which ARDC can easily afford) it has no other negatives that I can think of.
Chris - G1FEF
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Y'all, thank you so much for this discussion. It's really helpful to read your thoughts. It seems that the group is heavily weighted towards using Groups.io. I also see the comments re: sticking with Mailman, which is is totally an option.
As Chris has mentioned, the hesitation to using them boils down to it being a hosted (vs. self-hosted) service. We're going to read the terms of service and see if there's anything in there we object to. Here they are in case others are interested:
We definitely wish to use some kind of forum service for the grantmaking side of the house, and I love the idea of both 44net users and grantees being able to co-mingle if they like.
Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV Executive Director Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC) ampr.org
On 4/22/22 9:15 AM, Mark Stevenson via 44net wrote:
My 2-pence…
I have used groups.io http://groups.io for a long time and see no reason why we shouldn’t continue using it.
Sometimes, paying for something offers guarantees and SLAs you just won’t get out of ‘doing it yourself’ and it makes sense to bite the bullet and leave someone else manage the infrastructure.
The cloud is just someone else’s server… that’s it… a marketing term to give something lesser technical people could understand when explaining the internet.
I didn’t think this group would have the same preconceptions of the internet other groups do 😂 but we are radio amateurs first and foremost.
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 17:05, Chris Smith via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
On 22 Apr 2022, at 15:45, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote: Well, there are some interesting comments. One being the cost of service. If you look at the discourse link, right away it says it is $100 per month, so it is not free.That's for the hosted version. The software itself is open source and you can host it yourself at no cost.And if they were to decide this group was a business then it is $300 per month. Still not free. Trying to find pricing forgroups.io <http://groups.io/>shows starting at $20 per month for up to 500 members. I don't have any idea how many members there may be to this group.Just under 1,000 members. groups.io <http://groups.io> do an enterprise edition for $200/month but they discount this by 50% to non-profits.A few have said they don't want anything that is "cloud based". Anything you get from the internet is "cloud based" one way or another.Indeed, “cloud based” just means it’s on a server in a datacenter when you boil it down. “Cloud” is more of a marketing term than a technical term.A few years ago when most of the groups were jumping from Yahoo some of the groups talked about google. That is probably one of the worst places to go to. I, along with several others in several groups said if they went to google we would drop out. That hasn't changed for me. Trust google for much of anything? Good luck with that.+1 Google is definitely NOT the way to go IMO.A bit of my experience withgroups.io <http://groups.io/>. For those who like the digest, it works, for those who like to get email, it works, for those who just want to look at the messages in the group, it works. It works well for archive and searching. A couple of other good features, it allows an email receiver to limit attachment size (for those inconsiderate people who think they have to send an image that is 10 megs and larger) so instead it sends a link for the attachment. Also, if a user is no longer interested in getting email about a subject, it allows that user to mute the subject, which means they don't get any more emails about it. Since I don't manage any groups, I'm sure there are several management tools available to manage the group.I’ve been using groups.io <http://groups.io> practically since it began, I manage several groups and have contributed to their beta programme. I have made several suggestions for improvements, most of which they have implemented. They are very open to suggestions for improvements and seem keen to keep their customer base happy. It’s not open source, which is a shame, but it is by far the best option, hands down, IMHO. Now if someone fancies writing an open source clone of groups.io <http://groups.io> they would be on to a winner! if we are going to move from a plain text mailing list, I would vote groups.io <http://groups.io> - apart from the “not open source” and the price tag (which ARDC can easily afford) it has no other negatives that I can think of. Chris - G1FEF _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Mailman /email is preferred here too. I am glad the new mailman web interface has a way to search the archives. That was lacking in the previous version.
On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 11:45 AM Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Y'all, thank you so much for this discussion. It's really helpful to read your thoughts. It seems that the group is heavily weighted towards using Groups.io. I also see the comments re: sticking with Mailman, which is is totally an option.
As Chris has mentioned, the hesitation to using them boils down to it being a hosted (vs. self-hosted) service. We're going to read the terms of service and see if there's anything in there we object to. Here they are in case others are interested:
We definitely wish to use some kind of forum service for the grantmaking side of the house, and I love the idea of both 44net users and grantees being able to co-mingle if they like.
Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV Executive Director Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC) ampr.org
On 4/22/22 9:15 AM, Mark Stevenson via 44net wrote:
My 2-pence…
I have used groups.io http://groups.io for a long time and see no reason why we shouldn’t continue using it.
Sometimes, paying for something offers guarantees and SLAs you just won’t get out of ‘doing it yourself’ and it makes sense to bite the bullet and leave someone else manage the infrastructure.
The cloud is just someone else’s server… that’s it… a marketing term to give something lesser technical people could understand when explaining the internet.
I didn’t think this group would have the same preconceptions of the internet other groups do 😂 but we are radio amateurs first and foremost.
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022 at 17:05, Chris Smith via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
On 22 Apr 2022, at 15:45, Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote: Well, there are some interesting comments. One being the cost of service. If you look at the discourse link, right away it says it is $100 per month, so it is not free.That's for the hosted version. The software itself is open source and you can host it yourself at no cost.And if they were to decide this group was a business then it is $300 per month. Still not free. Trying to find pricing forgroups.io <http://groups.io/>shows starting at $20 per month for up to 500 members. I don't have any idea how many members there may be to this group.Just under 1,000 members. groups.io <http://groups.io> do an enterprise edition for $200/month but they discount this by 50% to non-profits.A few have said they don't want anything that is "cloud based". Anything you get from the internet is "cloud based" one way or another.Indeed, “cloud based” just means it’s on a server in a datacenter when you boil it down. “Cloud” is more of a marketing term than a technical term.A few years ago when most of the groups were jumping from Yahoo some of the groups talked about google. That is probably one of the worst places to go to. I, along with several others in several groups said if they went to google we would drop out. That hasn't changed for me. Trust google for much of anything? Good luck with that.+1 Google is definitely NOT the way to go IMO.A bit of my experience withgroups.io <http://groups.io/>. For those who like the digest, it works, for those who like to get email, it works, for those who just want to look at the messages in the group, it works. It works well for archive and searching. A couple of other good features, it allows an email receiver to limit attachment size (for those inconsiderate people who think they have to send an image that is 10 megs and larger) so instead it sends a link for the attachment. Also, if a user is no longer interested in getting email about a subject, it allows that user to mute the subject, which means they don't get any more emails about it. Since I don't manage any groups, I'm sure there are several management tools available to manage the group.I’ve been using groups.io <http://groups.io> practically since it began, I manage several groups and have contributed to their beta programme. I have made several suggestions for improvements, most of which they have implemented. They are very open to suggestions for improvements and seem keen to keep their customer base happy. It’s not open source, which is a shame, but it is by far the best option, hands down, IMHO. Now if someone fancies writing an open source clone of groups.io <http://groups.io> they would be on to a winner! if we are going to move from a plain text mailing list, I would vote groups.io <http://groups.io> - apart from the “not open source” and the price tag (which ARDC can easily afford) it has no other negatives that I can think of. Chris - G1FEF _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
As mentioned earlier, groups.io provides some additional features which we could consolidate, eg. Wiki, File Repository, Polls, Light Database, Chat, etc. With one place to go to connect to them. For those who want everything in email, including limiting your received email to plain text.
A couple of features I like are sub-groups (we can have multiple sub-groups for things like VPN, 44-Net, Grants, HAMNET, Hamwan, etc. or regional/language specific) so people can focus their discussions and you can setup both social login (Google/Facebook) and a list of email addresses that you can send from (e.g. k7ve@k7ve.org and john.hays@ardc.net for me).
Groups.io is the best solution
A sexta, 22/04/2022, 17:58, John D. Hays via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org escreveu:
As mentioned earlier, groups.io provides some additional features which we could consolidate, eg. Wiki, File Repository, Polls, Light Database, Chat, etc. With one place to go to connect to them. For those who want everything in email, including limiting your received email to plain text.
A couple of features I like are sub-groups (we can have multiple sub-groups for things like VPN, 44-Net, Grants, HAMNET, Hamwan, etc. or regional/language specific) so people can focus their discussions and you can setup both social login (Google/Facebook) and a list of email addresses that you can send from (e.g. k7ve@k7ve.org and john.hays@ardc.net for me).
-- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE / WRJT-215
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Hi folks,
Thanks so much for the discussion on this last week. It was really helpful to see your thoughts and feedback. We also got to have some discussion about this internally this morning – or, well, evening for Chris.
Aside from server stability and backup issues (which have been solved) the other problems we were looking at were:
* Searching the archives (previously unavailable) * Providing a space for discussion between grantees / for topics that are outside the scope of the 44net mailing list * Within that discussion, allowing for participants to find threads by topic * Creating cross-pollination between grantees and 44net mailing list members.
Given that the cross-pollination is a nice-to-have rather than a need-to-have, that the new mailman interface does allow for searching the archives, and that migrating this mailing list to any new system will likely come with pain and user drop-off, it makes sense for this mailing list to remain on its existing and updated mailman instance. We can always create a forum (e.g. Groups.io or Discourse) for other topics.
If / when we create such a forum space, obviously everyone here will be invited. In the meantime, please continue to enjoy this updated Mailman. And thank you, Chris, for all the work you've done to make it happen.
73, Rosy
Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV Executive Director Amateur Radio Digital Communications (ARDC) ampr.org
On 4/22/22 12:48 PM, Paul Sladen via 44net wrote:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2022, Jorge Santos via 44net wrote:
[XYZ] is the best solution
Depends what something is being measured against.
What we have not yet seen documented is what "the problem" is.
-Paul
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
On Tue, 26 Apr 2022, Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV via 44net wrote:
... migrating this mailing list to any new system will likely come with pain and user drop-off, it makes sense for this mailing list to remain
Thank you; this seems a wise conclusion,
-Paul
On 27/4/22 7:11 am, Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV via 44net wrote:
Given that the cross-pollination is a nice-to-have rather than a need-to-have, that the new mailman interface does allow for searching the archives, and that migrating this mailing list to any new system will likely come with pain and user drop-off, it makes sense for this mailing list to remain on its existing and updated mailman instance. We can always create a forum (e.g. Groups.io or Discourse) for other topics.
Mailman does the job pretty well, and I think we're now at an "if it ain't broke..." stage. :) However, I will still mention that any future discussions on web only forums (Discourse, etc) will be effectively inaccessible to me for day to day use. Groups.io for these new services would be fine, as I'd simply subscribe to any of interest via email, like I do with this list.
-
Chris KE2A -
Chris Smith -
John D. Hays -
Jorge Santos -
Mark Stevenson -
Paul Sladen -
Rosy Schechter - KJ7RYV -
Steve L -
Teton Amateur Radio Repeater Association -
Tony Langdon