The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
1) ARDC (Amateur Radio Digital Communications), is a California Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation and has existed since the 11th of October 2011. ARDC has had control/ownership of 44.0.0.0/8 that whole time. This corporation allows for continuity of control vs. a single person being the designated "owner" of the address space. This is a good thing. (E.g. there is no probate should the “owner” die intestate.)
a) Brian Kantor did the work and paid the expenses to move control from himself as an individual to the non-profit organization. To my understanding, he is the President and CEO, who under the direction of the Board of Directors manages the day-to-day operations of the ARDC
i) Of note: Brian did ask for donations to offset these expenses which were largely ignored.
2) There are no “voting members” in the corporation, nor according to the by-laws https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bylaws-2019-03-03.pdf are there any procedures for voting beyond those afforded the Board of Directors. As such, there was no requirement to get approval from anyone outside of the Board of Directors.
3) There are no “shareholders” to be consulted in the transaction.
4) Since no individual or individuals can claim to have property rights to the address space beyond the ARDC, nothing was stolen.
5) Negotiations for the purchase and sale of tangible assets often require a certain degree of privacy. Public disclosure is a two-edged sword, it can help or hurt the interests of the seller and/or buyer.
6) As reported in communications from the Board, some non-disclosures were required for the transaction, among them the price and buyer identity.
a) The controlling entity can be discovered easily using *whois 44.192.0.0/10 http://44.192.0.0/10*
b) Based on known market values, this transaction likely produced the mid to high tens of millions of dollars for the ARDC.
i) Splitting the address space further actually would provide less value to the buyer and less money to the seller. Based on estimates given me by a buyer, the collection of 65 thousand /24 in a /8 would only return 65% of the price of the entire /8.
7) The proceeds are going to be used to further Amateur Radio, specifically through grants, scholarships, and funded studies. Which would not exist without this action. If administered properly, this will be a monumental boon to Amateur Radio.
a) I know some of the board members, and of those whom I know I am confident they will manage this process well and honorably.
i) That doesn’t mean their decisions will be universally accepted.
ii) I have served on the technical advisory committee for ARDC for years and if asked will help with review of applications.
b) To this point I am not aware of any officer, board member, or committee member receiving compensation for their work. They are volunteers.
8) 75% of the /8 address space was retained and only one block out of the 44.192.0.0/10 had been allocated. See https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
a) Of the remaining 12 million addresses, less than half have been allocated, and a tiny fraction are actually in use.
b) Even though I and others have advocated for more utilization of the address space and provided tools, tutorials, etc. this address space has been sorely underutilized.
9) As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine the structure of the network and modernize it.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
d) Develop better management tools (e.g. money allows hiring out improvements to things like http://portal.ampr.org) including DNS/rDNS delegation.
10) There were some operational issues overnight such as reverse DNS. Major ones have already been resolved and the others can be worked through. No matter how well planned, these things can happen.
11) This will not be reversed. One can involve oneself in second guessing and fighting it or one can step up and help ARDC come up with appropriate processes to provide a perpetual fund for Amateur Radio research, education, and outreach.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
This. +1
On Jul 19, 2019, at 12:31, John D. Hays john@hays.org wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
- ARDC (Amateur Radio Digital Communications), is a California
Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation and has existed since the 11th of October 2011. ARDC has had control/ownership of 44.0.0.0/8 that whole time. This corporation allows for continuity of control vs. a single person being the designated "owner" of the address space. This is a good thing. (E.g. there is no probate should the “owner” die intestate.)
a) Brian Kantor did the work and paid the expenses to move control from himself as an individual to the non-profit organization. To my understanding, he is the President and CEO, who under the direction of the Board of Directors manages the day-to-day operations of the ARDC
i) Of note: Brian did ask for donations to offset these expenses which were largely ignored.
- There are no “voting members” in the corporation, nor according to
the by-laws https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bylaws-2019-03-03.pdf are there any procedures for voting beyond those afforded the Board of Directors. As such, there was no requirement to get approval from anyone outside of the Board of Directors.
There are no “shareholders” to be consulted in the transaction.
Since no individual or individuals can claim to have property rights
to the address space beyond the ARDC, nothing was stolen.
- Negotiations for the purchase and sale of tangible assets often
require a certain degree of privacy. Public disclosure is a two-edged sword, it can help or hurt the interests of the seller and/or buyer.
- As reported in communications from the Board, some non-disclosures
were required for the transaction, among them the price and buyer identity.
a) The controlling entity can be discovered easily using *whois 44.192.0.0/10 http://44.192.0.0/10*
b) Based on known market values, this transaction likely produced the mid to high tens of millions of dollars for the ARDC.
i) Splitting the address space further actually would provide less value to the buyer and less money to the seller. Based on estimates given me by a buyer, the collection of 65 thousand /24 in a /8 would only return 65% of the price of the entire /8.
- The proceeds are going to be used to further Amateur Radio,
specifically through grants, scholarships, and funded studies. Which would not exist without this action. If administered properly, this will be a monumental boon to Amateur Radio.
a) I know some of the board members, and of those whom I know I am confident they will manage this process well and honorably.
i) That doesn’t mean their decisions will be universally accepted.
ii) I have served on the technical advisory committee for ARDC for years and if asked will help with review of applications.
b) To this point I am not aware of any officer, board member, or committee member receiving compensation for their work. They are volunteers.
- 75% of the /8 address space was retained and only one block out of
the 44.192.0.0/10 had been allocated. See https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
a) Of the remaining 12 million addresses, less than half have been allocated, and a tiny fraction are actually in use.
b) Even though I and others have advocated for more utilization of the address space and provided tools, tutorials, etc. this address space has been sorely underutilized.
- As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine the
structure of the network and modernize it.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
d) Develop better management tools (e.g. money allows hiring out improvements to things like http://portal.ampr.org) including DNS/rDNS delegation.
- There were some operational issues overnight such as reverse DNS.
Major ones have already been resolved and the others can be worked through. No matter how well planned, these things can happen.
- This will not be reversed. One can involve oneself in second guessing
and fighting it or one can step up and help ARDC come up with appropriate processes to provide a perpetual fund for Amateur Radio research, education, and outreach.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
-- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
My questions of how this has come to be aside I generally agree with the below.
Marc
Get BlueMail for Android
On 19 Jul 2019, 18:30, at 18:30, "John D. Hays" john@hays.org wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
- ARDC (Amateur Radio Digital Communications), is a California
Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation and has existed since the 11th of October 2011. ARDC has had control/ownership of 44.0.0.0/8 that whole time. This corporation allows for continuity of control vs. a single person being the designated "owner" of the address space. This is a good thing. (E.g. there is no probate should the “owner” die intestate.)
a) Brian Kantor did the work and paid the expenses to move control from himself as an individual to the non-profit organization. To my understanding, he is the President and CEO, who under the direction of the Board of Directors manages the day-to-day operations of the ARDC
i) Of note: Brian did ask for donations to offset these expenses which were largely ignored.
- There are no “voting members” in the corporation, nor according
to the by-laws https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bylaws-2019-03-03.pdf are there any procedures for voting beyond those afforded the Board of Directors. As such, there was no requirement to get approval from anyone outside of the Board of Directors.
There are no “shareholders” to be consulted in the transaction.
Since no individual or individuals can claim to have property
rights to the address space beyond the ARDC, nothing was stolen.
- Negotiations for the purchase and sale of tangible assets often
require a certain degree of privacy. Public disclosure is a two-edged sword, it can help or hurt the interests of the seller and/or buyer.
- As reported in communications from the Board, some
non-disclosures were required for the transaction, among them the price and buyer identity.
a) The controlling entity can be discovered easily using *whois 44.192.0.0/10 http://44.192.0.0/10*
b) Based on known market values, this transaction likely produced the mid to high tens of millions of dollars for the ARDC.
i) Splitting the address space further actually would provide less value to the buyer and less money to the seller. Based on estimates given me by a buyer, the collection of 65 thousand /24 in a /8 would only return 65% of the price of the entire /8.
- The proceeds are going to be used to further Amateur Radio,
specifically through grants, scholarships, and funded studies. Which would not exist without this action. If administered properly, this will be a monumental boon to Amateur Radio.
a) I know some of the board members, and of those whom I know I am confident they will manage this process well and honorably.
i) That doesn’t mean their decisions will be universally accepted.
ii) I have served on the technical advisory committee for ARDC for years and if asked will help with review of applications.
b) To this point I am not aware of any officer, board member, or committee member receiving compensation for their work. They are volunteers.
- 75% of the /8 address space was retained and only one block out
of the 44.192.0.0/10 had been allocated. See https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
a) Of the remaining 12 million addresses, less than half have been allocated, and a tiny fraction are actually in use.
b) Even though I and others have advocated for more utilization of the address space and provided tools, tutorials, etc. this address space has been sorely underutilized.
- As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine
the structure of the network and modernize it.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
d) Develop better management tools (e.g. money allows hiring out improvements to things like http://portal.ampr.org) including DNS/rDNS delegation.
- There were some operational issues overnight such as reverse DNS.
Major ones have already been resolved and the others can be worked through. No matter how well planned, these things can happen.
- This will not be reversed. One can involve oneself in second
guessing and fighting it or one can step up and help ARDC come up with appropriate processes to provide a perpetual fund for Amateur Radio research, education, and outreach.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
-- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
John,
Thank you for providing a sane voice of wisdom amidst the shouting that is overshadowing this announcement. I agree with everything that you said. The overreaction has been something akin to the recent revelation that Thales dared to talk about reallocating part of the 2m band, despite the fact that that has roughly a snowball's chance in a thermally antagonistic environment of succeeding.
Moreover, I view this announcement with some guarded enthusiasm; not because of the reduction of address space, but because restructuring from a /8 to a /9 plus a /10 means that there's now a logical split in which to start doing some experimentation of the sort suggested as a larger network reorganization effort: suppose that 44.128.0.0/10 and IPv6 become the strictly experimental part of the network, where we explore new over-the-air layer 2 protocols, new interconnection mechanisms, etc? Traffic handling and more "production"-oriented applications can live in 44.0.0.0/9. I say "guarded" because amateur radio, as Phil Karn points out, has really stagnated when it comes to digital technologies in the 21st century. While there's an opportunity here, I don't know that the will exists to take advantage of it. We should be on the forefront of technology; instead, we seem to be lagging rather far behind.
The fact is that the 44/8 resource was massively underutilized, and more value for amateur radio was generated by shedding a quarter of it than would have been done by holding onto it. Of course it would have been incredible if someone had come along and given ARDC a pile of cash without having to sell off part of the address space, but that was unrealistic. When the reality of that situation is taken into account, this was actually a really amazingly fortuitous outcome.
- Dan C., KZ2X
On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 1:30 PM John D. Hays john@hays.org wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
- ARDC (Amateur Radio Digital Communications), is a California
Nonprofit Public Benefit Corporation and has existed since the 11th of October 2011. ARDC has had control/ownership of 44.0.0.0/8 that whole time. This corporation allows for continuity of control vs. a single person being the designated "owner" of the address space. This is a good thing. (E.g. there is no probate should the “owner” die intestate.)
a) Brian Kantor did the work and paid the expenses to move control from himself as an individual to the non-profit organization. To my understanding, he is the President and CEO, who under the direction of the Board of Directors manages the day-to-day operations of the ARDC
i) Of note: Brian did ask for donations to offset these expenses which were largely ignored.
- There are no “voting members” in the corporation, nor according to
the by-laws <https://www.ampr.org/wp-content/uploads/Bylaws-2019-03-03.pdf
are there any procedures for voting beyond those afforded the Board of Directors. As such, there was no requirement to get approval from anyone outside of the Board of Directors.
There are no “shareholders” to be consulted in the transaction.
Since no individual or individuals can claim to have property rights
to the address space beyond the ARDC, nothing was stolen.
- Negotiations for the purchase and sale of tangible assets often
require a certain degree of privacy. Public disclosure is a two-edged sword, it can help or hurt the interests of the seller and/or buyer.
- As reported in communications from the Board, some non-disclosures
were required for the transaction, among them the price and buyer identity.
a) The controlling entity can be discovered easily using *whois 44.192.0.0/10 http://44.192.0.0/10*
b) Based on known market values, this transaction likely produced the mid to high tens of millions of dollars for the ARDC.
i) Splitting the address space further actually would provide less value to the buyer and less money to the seller. Based on estimates given me by a buyer, the collection of 65 thousand /24 in a /8 would only return 65% of the price of the entire /8.
- The proceeds are going to be used to further Amateur Radio,
specifically through grants, scholarships, and funded studies. Which would not exist without this action. If administered properly, this will be a monumental boon to Amateur Radio.
a) I know some of the board members, and of those whom I know I am confident they will manage this process well and honorably.
i) That doesn’t mean their decisions will be universally accepted.
ii) I have served on the technical advisory committee for ARDC for years and if asked will help with review of applications.
b) To this point I am not aware of any officer, board member, or committee member receiving compensation for their work. They are volunteers.
- 75% of the /8 address space was retained and only one block out of
the 44.192.0.0/10 had been allocated. See https://portal.ampr.org/networks.php
a) Of the remaining 12 million addresses, less than half have been allocated, and a tiny fraction are actually in use.
b) Even though I and others have advocated for more utilization of the address space and provided tools, tutorials, etc. this address space has been sorely underutilized.
- As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine the
structure of the network and modernize it.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
d) Develop better management tools (e.g. money allows hiring out improvements to things like http://portal.ampr.org) including DNS/rDNS delegation.
- There were some operational issues overnight such as reverse DNS.
Major ones have already been resolved and the others can be worked through. No matter how well planned, these things can happen.
- This will not be reversed. One can involve oneself in second guessing
and fighting it or one can step up and help ARDC come up with appropriate processes to provide a perpetual fund for Amateur Radio research, education, and outreach.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
-- John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
On Fri, 19 Jul 2019, John D. Hays wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
+!
I generally don't like surprises and certainly the transparency could have been better. But the loss is far far outweighed by current and future benefits.
I applaud the ARDC leadership in making this happen as I had come to my own conclusions a while back that this was only a matter of time. And the timing to find that sweet spot of peaking monetary value for the address space is spot on.
On 7/19/19 1:27 PM, John D. Hays wrote:
- This will not be reversed. One can involve oneself in second guessing
and fighting it or one can step up and help ARDC come up with appropriate processes to provide a perpetual fund for Amateur Radio research, education, and outreach.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
There is a need for change at ARDC. The current board is corrupt and is self serving. The board has no reached out the TAC committee in close to 4 years, and that's the TAC committee!
Phil has not posted to the 44net list in, well, ever. KC and John too. What have they done at ARDC? Nothing.
The time to develop a foundation and giving plan was over the last years, and then work to a sale of assets. Discussion would have helped.
Money from ARDC will be fruit of the poison tree.
On 20/07/19 03:27, John D. Hays wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
Some good thoughts there John. Something did catch my eye.
- As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine the
structure of the network and modernize it.
Yep. I see this as an opportunity as well.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
That is rather old technology and difficult for some to implement (impossible behind CGN). What would you replace it with?
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
Goes without saying.
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
Whatever we use must not come at the cost of suboptimal routing, and be able to scale at least as well as the IPIP tunnels do.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
Agree, the world has changed. Use it as an opportunity.
My thoughts Long ago (maybe a decade or so) Brian told us that the UCSD machine getting old and needed an upgrade I personally raised two solution 1) Donation from all of us 2) providing him the system (machine) he want according to the spec he will provide he told me that time that a Computer is not a problem and therefore no donation was done and he got a computer by his own also long ago he wrote in the forum here that he got request to pay for AMPR.ORG domain and he personally dont intend to pay it and I know that someone else pay for it so from the point of the donation im sure that if donation would needed indeed any one of us would donate and thats refer for the selling of our network I say again (as RF person who deal in the repeaters in our country ) I dont free any Frequency of our bands no matter what the price is even if it would benefit me a lot of sophisticated and expensive repeaters as a reward for giving few KHz of my band
same is for our Network i know it is too late but we shouldn't give any single ip no matter what the price was if we needed money for development of our network we would get it from other sources
now my thought : what will happen if theoretically we will run out of our address spaces ? how will we get a new address block ?
now that we are after that i call all the experts here (and I know that there are here first stage experts) Please develop the network find newer solutions to the old IPIP system install a VPN server at UCSD and find us K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid) solutions for making gateways that even dummies would be able to setup a working gateway without any knowledge in software or hardware
I cant help you on that matter as im not a software person but willing to help testing anything i can for you ...
and last : Brian : continue to do the good job providing us a DNS and a Router with zero downtime find for you a replacement for time that you are on vacation and sleep a bit and dont answer mails at late night hours ...
73 Ronen - 4Z4ZQ
________________________________ From: 44Net 44net-bounces+ronenp=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org on behalf of Tony Langdon via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 1:12 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org Cc: Tony Langdon Subject: Re: [44net] A few thoughts on recent developments
On 20/07/19 03:27, John D. Hays wrote:
The sale of 44.192.0.0/10 took most of us by surprise and for some it somehow feels like a coup. Here are a few thoughts I have had, since the announcement:
Some good thoughts there John. Something did catch my eye.
- As others have mentioned, this is an excellent time to reexamine the
structure of the network and modernize it.
Yep. I see this as an opportunity as well.
a) Deprecate the IPIP tunnel mesh
That is rather old technology and difficult for some to implement (impossible behind CGN). What would you replace it with?
b) Update firewall rules, replacing 44.0.0.0/8 with similar rules for 44.0.0.0/9 and 44.128.0.0/10
Goes without saying.
c) Adopt BGP and VPNs (or similar strategies) for interconnection and routing.
Whatever we use must not come at the cost of suboptimal routing, and be able to scale at least as well as the IPIP tunnels do.
tl;dr – It’s a done deal, work with it. Become active and take the initiative to improve the network.
Agree, the world has changed. Use it as an opportunity.
-- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
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