On Thu Dec 10 01:13:16 PST 2015 Sam VK4AA wrote:
> You are correct, but we cant count on everyone on the same playing field
> But then this is a hobby of learning so it may take a while for us all to be
> on the same page.
Sam -
for (maybe) you and all others who are not sure what the hell we are
talking about those 32bit AS-numbers this nice article may be some help
to get you on the same page:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2233273/cisco-subnet/understanding-4-by…
It's nice to read and gives some hints on how to fit old 16bit and new
32bit ASNs together. (Thanks to Thomas DL9SAU for finding this article
in the net.)
So whatever method should be used, it should assure to map "old"
16bit-ASNs to the new 32bit-ASNs in a way as easy as possible.
Keep in mind that in Europe there is a "European HAMNET" driven by 16
countries. It was founded in early 2000s and is using 16bit-ASNs because
the 32bit-range was not available at that time. There is a registry to
avoid ASN-doubles and it is working very well. As I know it is by far
the largest bgp-driven network within the 44-Net worldwide, as far as
the number of countries, number of participants and area is concernd.
For more info about that see links at bottom of this mail (all in english).
Either the 42<mcc>xxxxx or the 42<dxcc>xxxxx proposals give the chance
to map old 16bit-ASNs 1:1 into the new 32bit-ASNs because they leave the
lower 16bit-part to the countries for individual use. Even an
IP-subnet-coded ASN like e.g. for Austria 42143xxxxx would fit this.
The first proposal from Rob PE1CHL does not. It is incompatible to
everything that was used or proposed before. Glad to hear that Rob is
willing to change this.
I don't think that the discussion about either 42<mcc>xxxxx or
42<dxcc>xxxx is only cosmetical. We must keep in mind different sizes of
different countries and there networks.
MCC has 7 # for USA and 2 # for China. Each other country has 1. Within
DXCC every country has 1 # ready to go. I agree with Marius YO2LOJ:
At a first glance the mcc proposal seems to be prefereable because it
allows more ASN-Range for big countries on the go. On DXCC-numbers
something has to be added to make it recognize different sizes of
countries. That causes unnecessary work and - to say it with Peja's
words: "you will have to provide mapping table and make sure it is
updated all the time." for dxcc.
I would be very glad to have a worldwide usable sulution (proposal) for
the whole 44-Net which is commonly accepted and published on a central
site. This gives all new countries willing to join a bgp-routed network
within 44-Net something at hand they can deal with from startup.
Don't let us hesitate on this topic and let's plan it very well.
73s de Egbert DD9QP
--
Infos about European Hamnet:
https://www.tapr.org/pdf/DCC2014-TheEuropeanHAMNET-DG8NGN.pdfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A6DDrJRcws
> Subject:
> Re: [44net] Proposal for allocation of AS numbers
> From:
> Egbert - DD9QP <dd9qp(a)db0res-svr.ampr.org>
> Date:
> 12/10/2015 08:46 PM
>
> To:
> 44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
>> Well... We have been using that but the exact reason for this whole
>> proposal
>> was that I was extremely p*ssed off this week ...
>
> LOL
>
> Rob -
>
> I think this is not the plenum and thread to discuss your emotional situation.
>
> As I have heard some 3 weeks ago you occupied an additional ASN which was advertised to Slowenia since 2012 without asking maintainers or anybody else and without agreement from slowenia for using it. Well thats community rules and it works for 16
> countries. I personaly think you did it by mistake because it was documented well only on 2 Sites in the net and you had no time to read it or ask some of the maintainers. Taking all this into account I can understand that others than you had some
> more reasons to get p*ssed off.
We were told that the place to register information was hamnetdb.net and indeed there is a list of AS numbers there.
When we ran out of the 4 assigned numbers I took the next one (skipping one that was registered to Slovenia) which was not registered.
It was only later that it turned out that there is another place where "blocks" of AS numbers are handed out, and not being registered on hamnetdb does not mean the AS is available.
In my experience, asking something to the maintainer of hamnetdb is not an effective way of getting knowledge.
>
>
>> Initially we (the Netherlands) got an allocation of 4 AS numbers,...
>
> This was kind of an an initial "dummy" block assigned in 2010-2012 when the netherlands not even were thinking about joining that Network. We never heard of them until end 2014. Believe it or not: It was some German Guys that proposed in a very
> early planing phase to put the netherlands in for future use because they could not believe that the Netherlands would not be interested in the future. Some more guys that have reason to get p*ssed off now? Well it's your decision not to
> participate. Whenever a country ran out of ASN-space it got some more, without doing a caroussel for all others, but _after_ a request to the community/registry.
Packet radio has been all but dead here for over a decade, because of the fast deployment of flatrate always-on internet in our densely
populated country.
The interest in radio networking has only come back the past 2 years. We are setting up a network for experiments and for our multisite
repeater network. We are more interested in experimenting than in copying a network concept that has already been rolled out elsewhere.
We want to make sure we can interface with others, but we for sure don't want to walk on other people's leech. For example, we
have a completely different view on how our network interfaces with Internet than your group has. And I think that is good, you should
not blindly follow our ideas either.
We were notified of the AS allocation only last year, but apparently it existed longer than that.
It turned out that the German Guys had decided how to divide the Netherlands into regions without discussing that concept with us.
That is not the way we work anymore here, and it has been some time. Would you have deferred that allocation until after some
discussion, that would also have been the moment to explain how those allocations are made and where they are registered.
That never happened.
But anyhow, the problem was not that I had mistakenly taken an AS number that turned out to be assigned to someone else.
I immediately offered to move that AS and asked for another block of numbers to put the AS and the next ones we needed.
What p*ssed me off is the SILLY policy of that registry that the AS numbers are assigned to a country by contiguous block, that the blocks
are allocated without any space between them, and that the only way to get a block extended is to allocate a new block and move everything over.
Now, that would not have been too hard for the 5 numbers that we had in place, but I just don't want to be using a registry with a silly
policy like that (there is no reason whatsoever why AS numbers need to be allocated in contiguous blocks!) and risk more and more useless
renumbering in the future, so the decision was made to evacuate immediately to avoid further damage.
(I was alerted to similar problems experienced by the people operating the DMR repeaters here and they have made a similar move recently)
Fortunately the availability of the 32-bit AS range means that there is no need for cooperation with people that want to manage others.
We can just setup a system like the one we are discussing now, and there is no more need to work overtime to please the German Guys.
>
> Rob, what you brought into this list is a question of behavior and how one should interact with a community, but it has nothing to do with technical reasons, so I am not willing to discuss this any more on this list or in this thread.
>
I think I have explained what the problem was and why we don't want to use your registry anymore. It has policy that has nothing to
do with technical issues. The result is problems like the one we experienced.
Indeed there is no need to reply anymore. Our position is clear, and the whole problem has been worked around. You can delete our
registration, I have already removed all those AS numbers from hamnetdb objects.
Rob
DD9QP:
> Keep in mind that in Europe there is a "European HAMNET" driven by 16
> countries. It was founded in early 2000s and is using 16bit-ASNs because
> the 32bit-range was not available at that time. There is a registry to
> avoid ASN-doubles and it is working very well.
Well... We have been using that but the exact reason for this whole proposal
was that I was extremely p*ssed off this week when I discovered that this
registry only wants to allocate 1 contiguous range of AS numbers per country,
and allocates only tiny ranges. Every time one outgrows the range of numbers,
one is supposed to renumber the entire network. What a joke!
Initially we (the Netherlands) got an allocation of 4 AS numbers, and when
we needed more, the range immediately after that turned out to be already allocated
since before we got our 4. So we apparently had been put in a hole left by
someone else moving.
When I noted that I did not like this and would like a second block to expand
our allocation, the owner of the adjacent block was requested to renumber!!!
He even complained that he had to renumber twice before.
Then, we could expand our allocation to 19.
And this process was completed before I even could note that I did not want to
make others do the work that I did not see as useful.
So then the decision was made to leave that registry and find another solution
where neither we or others were forced to renumber or live with sub-optimal
solutions (trying to limit the number of ASN).
Our block can be returned to the free pool or be given back to the previous
owner in case he did not start the actual renumbering work.
Rob
Some of the radio networks implementing AMPRnet use BGP as a routing protocol, and therefore
require some AS numbers that should be unique within those networks. Note I am not referring
to BGP routing on internet, but only within local radio networks. There usually are one
or more gateways that are connecting those networks to internet, but BGP routing information
is not carried across them, they only route a fixed subnet and may or may not use BGP on the
inside as well.
It is customary to use AS numbers from the "private AS ranges" on those radio networks
documented in RFC6996: 64512 - 65534 and 4200000000 - 4294967294.
The first (old) range has 1023 available numbers, so it requires some registry where individual
areas can get numbers allocated to them to guarantee the uniqueness of the numbers within the
network. As always, the policies of such registries lead to discussion and feelings, and
I like to solve that by making the allocation fixed up to the regional level, so everyone can
determine their own numbers without having to agree with others how it is done exactly and
how many numbers each one requires and will get, and whether they need to be changed.
Since 2009, BGP implementatations must support 32-bit AS numbers, and the second larger range
has become available.
My proposal is to map the assigned IP address ranges for countries and states directly to AS
numbers in this AS range.
Advantages:
- the range of AS numbers automatically remains contiguous for countries and regions.
- no need for an "international" registry, and probably not even for a "national" registry.
- local operators can derive the AS number for their region from the local subnet address.
- very sparse use of the available space makes for very low chance of conflicts, even in the
presence of other private AS numbers that were allocated outside of this system.
- future proof as there is no 1023-AS limit for the AMPRnet radio networks.
- very easy to mnemonically map an AS number seen in a table or trace to the place where
it is allocated, without need to refer to an allocation database.
I propose the following AS number structure:
For an IP network with the address 44.xxx.yyy.0/zz, the AS number will be: 4244xxxyyy.
E.g. for my local network 44.137.40.0/22 the AS will be 4244137040.
When areas of AS allocation are larger, an arbitrary subnet (e.g. the first) within that area can
be used to derive the AS number.
Alternatively, a national allocation system can be set up to manage the range available for a
country or state when local operators like to do so, and use registered AS numbers from 000-999
within the range derived from the /16 address.
E.g. the Netherlands has 44.137.0.0/16, so we can use the 1000-number AS range of
4244137000-4244137999 and subdivide it the way we like.
There may be a slight chance that some very old equipment would not support 32-bit AS numbers,
but the popular MikroTik, Ubiquiti and Linux(quagga) routers have no issue at all, and there is
some interoperability with peers running the older version.
I'd like to hear the opinions on this and possible enhancements/modifications.
Rob
> Now will this be an issue for people like us that already have an asn?
> I can see problems arising
>
> Regards
>
> Sam Scafe
> VK4AA
No to the contrary, this proposal is being made to AVOID problems like that.
By defining a method to allocate AS numbers in a way that can be directly
derived from agreed numbers (like the IP address in my proposal, and the E.212
number in the one that I am going to adapt), we guarantee that the AS numbers
that we choose are not going to collide with the ones that others take.
Not that this is very likely anyway. There are over 95 million AS numbers in
the 32-bit range, and unless you do things like "private AS start at 4200000000
so we'll start numbering from there" it is not very likely that you will meet
another network that has chosen the same numbers.
And again: this is NOT related to AS numbers used on Internet. Our AS number
on internet is 3265 and it will remain the same.
Rob
HOLA MI NOMBRE ES MARTÍN LU9DMG
YA TENGO MI IP 44 --> 44.153.32.96 / 32
QUERÍA SABER COMO SERIA LA CONFIGURACIÓN
DE LA RED
LA INFORMACIÓN QUE TENGO ES
LA INFO QUE NECESITO ES LA PUERTA DE ENLACE ETC
QUERÍA CONFIGURAR LO EN UN MIKROTIK
O EN LA PC DONDE ESTA EL BBS
------------------
HELLO MY NAME IS MARTIN LU9DMG
I have my IP 44 -> 44.153.32.96 / 32
He wanted to know what it would SETTINGS
OF THE NETWORK
THE INFORMATION I HAVE IS
THE INFO YOU NEED IS THE GATEWAY ETC.
I WANTED IN A SETTING THE MIKROTIK
OR THE PC WHERE IS THE BBS
Regional NetworksNetworkDescriptionAllocated to44.153.0.0 /
23LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.32.96
/ 32buenos aires argentinaLU9DMG44.153.52.0 / 24LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.0 / 28
LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.16 / 30LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.20 /
32LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.21
/ 32LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.22 / 32LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.23 /
32LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.24
/ 30LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.28 / 30LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.32 /
27LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.64
/ 26LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.54.128 / 25LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.55.0 /
24LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.56.0
/ 23LU7ABFLU7ABF44.153.72.13 / 32GW lu8fjh.dyndns.org for 44.153.72.13/32
LU7ABF44.153.81.0 / 24LU7ABFLU7ABF
Are there any historical records (a la change management) of what has been
allocated to individuals in the past? I've got a new request from someone
that claims to have had an allocation but I'd like to be able to verify.
--
Rial F Sloan II
N0OTZ
Could the owner of ‘4x1kw - ham ip network in kibuts dan area’ gateway 31.154.7.2 please return my 44.182.21.0/24, which is alocated to YO, not 4X, subnet to me?
Thank you,
Marius, YO2LOJ
All,
I have worked on a updated version 2.0 RC3 of the STARTAMPR script. I've
also included more detailed instructions in the STARTAMPR file, as well
as a README. Original versions of the script remain compatible and can
continue to run on AMPRNet devices.
Also, for those wanting to reload the routing table on boot, I've
created a new script called BACKUP_AMPR.
Features of BACKUP_AMPR:
- creates an hourly output of "ip route get table 44" - table44_bak
- creates an hourly executable script to re-add those routes -
restore44sh
New in STARTAMRPR v2.0 RC3:
- DYNAMIC GATEWAY IP SUPPORT, proper configuration of Local Subnets
will end need to exclude your subnet using rip44d -a switch
- Routing tables and rules used to provide default routes and
blackholes independently for each subnet
- SECURITY FIX, packets for destinations not listed in TABLE 44 are
blackholed
- Examples of connecting to Gateways behind 44.0.0.0/s BGPed subnets
The files and README are located here for those on AMPRNet:
http://44.60.44.10/amprnet_docs/start_ampr_version2
73,
- Lynwood
KB3VWG
