> Subject:
> Re: [44net] Portal API: networks and allocations
> From:
> Tom Hayward <esarfl(a)gmail.com>
> Date:
> 12/21/2015 09:20 PM
>
> To:
> AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:02 PM, Rob Janssen<pe1chl(a)amsat.org> wrote:
>> >You can do that by simply watching the RIP broadcast and filter your own
>> >external address.
>> >This is what ampr-ripd also does.
> Wouldn't this only work for networks in the encap with assigned
> gateways? I was planning to use it with direct/BGP allocations, not
> tunneled, so there would be no entry in the encap.
>
> Tom KD7LXL
>
I think there is no entry in the portal either... at least there need not be one.
Anyway, I never do really basic config using a method this complicated. Risk is to high that
it fails, e.g. when the portal is offline. I keep a file with important config items as a shell script
and source it wherever it is required.
Rob
I'm getting bombed with these frames:
-- IP: len 162 10.1.1.5->239.192.152.143 ihl 20 ttl 1 DF prot UDP
UDP: len 142 40445->6771 Data 134
0000 BT-SEARCH * HTTP/1.1..Host: 239.192.152.143:6771..Port: 8999..In
0040 fohash: c28b3973f693bae99c1b0c13a137a051eef8d9d5..cookie: 5f9721
0080 ......
ax0: fm PY2ZEN-15 to QST ctl UI pid=CC(IP) len 162
IP: len 162 10.1.1.5->239.192.152.143 ihl 20 ttl 1 DF prot UDP
UDP: len 142 40445->6771 Data 134
0000 BT-SEARCH * HTTP/1.1..Host: 239.192.152.143:6771..Port: 8999..In
0040 fohash: c28b3973f693bae99c1b0c13a137a051eef8d9d5..cookie: 5f9721
0080 ......
ax0: fm PY2ZEN-15 to QST ctl UI pid=CC(IP) len 162
IP: len 162 10.1.1.5->239.192.152.143 ihl 20 ttl 255 DF prot UDP
UDP: len 142 6771->6771 Data 134
0000 BT-SEARCH * HTTP/1.1..Host: 239.192.152.143:6771..Port: 8999..In
0040 fohash: c28b3973f693bae99c1b0c13a137a051eef8d9d5..cookie: 5f9721
0080 ......
ax0: fm PY2ZEN-15 to QST ctl UI pid=CC(IP) len 162
IP: len 162 10.1.1.5->239.192.152.143 ihl 20 ttl 255 DF prot UDP
UDP: len 142 6771->6771 Data 134
0000 BT-SEARCH * HTTP/1.1..Host: 239.192.152.143:6771..Port: 8999..In
0040 fohash: c28b3973f693bae99c1b0c13a137a051eef8d9d5..cookie: 5f9721
0080 ......
Someone have a misconfigured router?
The only thing worse than an extreme left-wing state is an extreme
left-wing commonwealth protected by the sovereign doctrine.
73 de Brian - N1URO
email: (see above)
Web: http://www.n1uro.net/
Ampr1: http://n1uro.ampr.org/
Ampr2: http://nos.n1uro.ampr.org
Linux Amateur Radio Services
axMail-Fax & URONode
http://uronode.sourceforge.nethttp://axmail.sourceforge.net
AmprNet coordinator for:
Connecticut, Delaware, Maine,
Maryland, Massachusetts,
New Hampshire, Pennsylvania,
Rhode Island, and Vermont.
> Subject:
> [44net] Portal API: networks and allocations
> From:
> Tom Hayward <esarfl(a)gmail.com>
> Date:
> 12/21/2015 08:53 PM
>
> To:
> AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu>
>
>
> I just looked through the portal API document
> (https://portal.ampr.org/api.php) and don't see an endpoint for the
> network list and the user's own allocation list. Is this currently
> available? Can it be added?
>
> This would be useful for automation software. For example, you could
> plug your AMPR portal username into the software and it would fetch
> your list of allocations and automatically program your router to use
> those allocations.
>
> Tom KD7LXL
>
You can do that by simply watching the RIP broadcast and filter your own external address.
This is what ampr-ripd also does.
Rob
I just looked through the portal API document
(https://portal.ampr.org/api.php) and don't see an endpoint for the
network list and the user's own allocation list. Is this currently
available? Can it be added?
This would be useful for automation software. For example, you could
plug your AMPR portal username into the software and it would fetch
your list of allocations and automatically program your router to use
those allocations.
Tom KD7LXL
Marius:
> Coming back to the IP range/AS assignment:
>
> IMHO there must and shall not be such a correspondence. An AS is used to
> group one or more subnets into an well, Autonomous System (AS), and it
> should support, based on network architecture and layout, a possible
> migration of subnets from/to a specific AS, without any changes in the
> peering structure.
> e.g. If there is a subnet with access via AS 1 it should be there. But if
> later this subnet will be reorganized, and lets say will be accessed via AS
> 2, it should be possible to move it to AS 2 without any change in the BGP
> peering. This is not possible using AS numbers generated from IPs.
The idea behind using the IP address to calculate the AS is to make sure
that AS numbers are always unique, without having to use a registry and without
having to coordinate. When there is more than one subnet, it does not matter
which one is used to calculate the AS number. When the one that was used to
calculate the AS is being moved, some care will be required so it is not used
again for this purpose at the new site.
Up to now we only route to the "regional subnet" level and each region has only
a single subnet, so there are no problems. If an additional subnet is added
and then the original one is moved there could be problems, but this is not
likely.
This whole thing can depend on local issues and policies, but it does not
really matter how you do things locally as long as everyone uses the same
method to generate the prefix of the number. I will stick to that E.212
thing as it uses only 3 digits and because others are already doing this.
(if not, I would probably have removed the "44" digits and added 2 available
digits at the end, as proposed by Robbie)
Rob
> Subject:
> Re: [44net] Proposal for allocation of AS numbers
> From:
> Egbert - DD9QP <dd9qp(a)db0res-svr.ampr.org>
> Date:
> 12/11/2015 06:13 PM
>
> To:
> 44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
>
> EU HAMNET has started thinking about using private 32bit-ASN quite some time ago. Diskussions in our regular meetings pulsed up since 32bit-ASN where available.
>
> But what we always were missing up to now was an international proposal for all countries using the 44-Net and, of course, a common agreement for using that. It makes no sense when everyone is rolling out a different System without talking to
> others. Chances of crashing are high and planing isn't even worth the time.
>
> Regardless wether there is a registry, policy, human- or computerbased IP-Net-to-ASN-Generator out there, we all have to respect one minimal policy to keep everything running in the future:
>
> Don't use concurrent private-ASN-proposals in parallel!
> Everything else is left to the countries themselves.
>
> For example:
> Using the 42<mcc>xxxxxx in all countries is fine. But if some country starts using eg 42<IP-OctetofCountryDeployment>xxxxx there is high risk to crash with:
>
> Greece, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Monaco, Andorra, Spain, Hungary, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Italy, Vatican, Romania, Switzerland, Czech Rep., Slovak Rep., Austria, United Kingdom, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Lithuania, Latvia,
> Estonia, Russia, Ukraine
>
> All of them have mcc-codes between 0 and 255.
That is correct, that is why I decided to drop that proposal, although I still think it was better because:
- it did not rely on another number list that has questionable status w.r.t. availability
(my first attempts to download a complete list ended at some ITU site that requires a subscriber login,
but later I found places where the full list is available in the open)
- it handles the issue that the USA has much more network space relative to the number of E.212 entries
- it left a lot of space in the private ASN range unused for future ideas (4225600000 - 4294967294)
However, these issues are not that relevant in practice, and I am willing to go with the E.212 based system
because it is already there.
It gives all countries at least 100000 AS numbers to work with without any risk of duplicates, and some
countries have more than one mcc number. That should be plenty, especially when they are not based on
another number like a network address, but generated at some central site.
Finally, when space ever runs out we can always assign "reserved" E.212 numbers as an overflow.
100000 numbers is a lot, and allows for regional subdivision where appropriate.
Rob
Unfortunately my mail connection broke down for a few hours shortly after I posted
my proposal, so I missed most of the replies in my mail. I am now replying based on
the archive, but this means it is difficult to quote your messages.
Robbie: that is a good point. In my design I anticipated that one would not want to
route a smaller network than a /24, but in fact that could happen in the AMPRnet.
The reason I put the 44 in the AS number is to reduce the probability that an AS would
collide with another private AS allocated using a different system. However, it of course
uses precious space. See below.
Marius: that is interesting. This is exactly the kind of response I hoped for, as I prefer
to use a method that is already established rather than inventing my own.
I found it appealing that the subnet address can be seen and recognized, these E.212
codes are obscure to me (but probably not to the person who invented this method).
This method leaves 5 digits within the country range, which allows for smaller subnets
as Robbie proposed. I see one problem: because there is no 1:1 mapping between
E.212 code and AMPRnet /16 subnet, it will not always be possible to directly number
the AS from the subnet. For typical European countries it will work well, but for the
USA there is a "problem" because there are many more /16 subnets allocated to them
than there are E.212 codes. Of course there are still more than enough AS numbers,
but it means they need to use some registry instead of a direct derivation of the number.
Pedja: as mentioned early in the message, these AS are not for use on the public
internet but only on our private radio network. Gateways between radio and internet
are supposed not to be running BGP across them, or to filter the private AS and send
out the routing under their public AS. That is already happening.
It looks like I will modify the system to look like this for our local use (and others are
welcome to follow it: 42eeexxxyy where eee is the E.212 code, xxx is the third octet
of the IP address, and yy is a local sequence number 00-99 in cases where multiple
AS exist in that subnet. So for 44.137.40.0/22 it will be 4220404000
(204 is the E.212 code for the Netherlands which has 44.137.0.0/16)
When I would want an AS for my personal subnet 44.137.41.96/28 it could be
4220404096 or some other arbitrary 42204040xx number.
(for now, we only route to the regional subnets level)
In my opinion, it is less easy to read than the first proposal, but of course it has the
advantage of more AS space within the local area, and the fact that it is already
established in some places. That is an important advantage.
Rob
On Thu Dec 10 01:13:16 PST 2015 Sam VK4AA wrote:
> You are correct, but we cant count on everyone on the same playing field
> But then this is a hobby of learning so it may take a while for us all to be
> on the same page.
Sam -
for (maybe) you and all others who are not sure what the hell we are
talking about those 32bit AS-numbers this nice article may be some help
to get you on the same page:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2233273/cisco-subnet/understanding-4-by…
It's nice to read and gives some hints on how to fit old 16bit and new
32bit ASNs together. (Thanks to Thomas DL9SAU for finding this article
in the net.)
So whatever method should be used, it should assure to map "old"
16bit-ASNs to the new 32bit-ASNs in a way as easy as possible.
Keep in mind that in Europe there is a "European HAMNET" driven by 16
countries. It was founded in early 2000s and is using 16bit-ASNs because
the 32bit-range was not available at that time. There is a registry to
avoid ASN-doubles and it is working very well. As I know it is by far
the largest bgp-driven network within the 44-Net worldwide, as far as
the number of countries, number of participants and area is concernd.
For more info about that see links at bottom of this mail (all in english).
Either the 42<mcc>xxxxx or the 42<dxcc>xxxxx proposals give the chance
to map old 16bit-ASNs 1:1 into the new 32bit-ASNs because they leave the
lower 16bit-part to the countries for individual use. Even an
IP-subnet-coded ASN like e.g. for Austria 42143xxxxx would fit this.
The first proposal from Rob PE1CHL does not. It is incompatible to
everything that was used or proposed before. Glad to hear that Rob is
willing to change this.
I don't think that the discussion about either 42<mcc>xxxxx or
42<dxcc>xxxx is only cosmetical. We must keep in mind different sizes of
different countries and there networks.
MCC has 7 # for USA and 2 # for China. Each other country has 1. Within
DXCC every country has 1 # ready to go. I agree with Marius YO2LOJ:
At a first glance the mcc proposal seems to be prefereable because it
allows more ASN-Range for big countries on the go. On DXCC-numbers
something has to be added to make it recognize different sizes of
countries. That causes unnecessary work and - to say it with Peja's
words: "you will have to provide mapping table and make sure it is
updated all the time." for dxcc.
I would be very glad to have a worldwide usable sulution (proposal) for
the whole 44-Net which is commonly accepted and published on a central
site. This gives all new countries willing to join a bgp-routed network
within 44-Net something at hand they can deal with from startup.
Don't let us hesitate on this topic and let's plan it very well.
73s de Egbert DD9QP
--
Infos about European Hamnet:
https://www.tapr.org/pdf/DCC2014-TheEuropeanHAMNET-DG8NGN.pdfhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A6DDrJRcws
> Subject:
> Re: [44net] Proposal for allocation of AS numbers
> From:
> Egbert - DD9QP <dd9qp(a)db0res-svr.ampr.org>
> Date:
> 12/10/2015 08:46 PM
>
> To:
> 44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
>
>
>
>> Well... We have been using that but the exact reason for this whole
>> proposal
>> was that I was extremely p*ssed off this week ...
>
> LOL
>
> Rob -
>
> I think this is not the plenum and thread to discuss your emotional situation.
>
> As I have heard some 3 weeks ago you occupied an additional ASN which was advertised to Slowenia since 2012 without asking maintainers or anybody else and without agreement from slowenia for using it. Well thats community rules and it works for 16
> countries. I personaly think you did it by mistake because it was documented well only on 2 Sites in the net and you had no time to read it or ask some of the maintainers. Taking all this into account I can understand that others than you had some
> more reasons to get p*ssed off.
We were told that the place to register information was hamnetdb.net and indeed there is a list of AS numbers there.
When we ran out of the 4 assigned numbers I took the next one (skipping one that was registered to Slovenia) which was not registered.
It was only later that it turned out that there is another place where "blocks" of AS numbers are handed out, and not being registered on hamnetdb does not mean the AS is available.
In my experience, asking something to the maintainer of hamnetdb is not an effective way of getting knowledge.
>
>
>> Initially we (the Netherlands) got an allocation of 4 AS numbers,...
>
> This was kind of an an initial "dummy" block assigned in 2010-2012 when the netherlands not even were thinking about joining that Network. We never heard of them until end 2014. Believe it or not: It was some German Guys that proposed in a very
> early planing phase to put the netherlands in for future use because they could not believe that the Netherlands would not be interested in the future. Some more guys that have reason to get p*ssed off now? Well it's your decision not to
> participate. Whenever a country ran out of ASN-space it got some more, without doing a caroussel for all others, but _after_ a request to the community/registry.
Packet radio has been all but dead here for over a decade, because of the fast deployment of flatrate always-on internet in our densely
populated country.
The interest in radio networking has only come back the past 2 years. We are setting up a network for experiments and for our multisite
repeater network. We are more interested in experimenting than in copying a network concept that has already been rolled out elsewhere.
We want to make sure we can interface with others, but we for sure don't want to walk on other people's leech. For example, we
have a completely different view on how our network interfaces with Internet than your group has. And I think that is good, you should
not blindly follow our ideas either.
We were notified of the AS allocation only last year, but apparently it existed longer than that.
It turned out that the German Guys had decided how to divide the Netherlands into regions without discussing that concept with us.
That is not the way we work anymore here, and it has been some time. Would you have deferred that allocation until after some
discussion, that would also have been the moment to explain how those allocations are made and where they are registered.
That never happened.
But anyhow, the problem was not that I had mistakenly taken an AS number that turned out to be assigned to someone else.
I immediately offered to move that AS and asked for another block of numbers to put the AS and the next ones we needed.
What p*ssed me off is the SILLY policy of that registry that the AS numbers are assigned to a country by contiguous block, that the blocks
are allocated without any space between them, and that the only way to get a block extended is to allocate a new block and move everything over.
Now, that would not have been too hard for the 5 numbers that we had in place, but I just don't want to be using a registry with a silly
policy like that (there is no reason whatsoever why AS numbers need to be allocated in contiguous blocks!) and risk more and more useless
renumbering in the future, so the decision was made to evacuate immediately to avoid further damage.
(I was alerted to similar problems experienced by the people operating the DMR repeaters here and they have made a similar move recently)
Fortunately the availability of the 32-bit AS range means that there is no need for cooperation with people that want to manage others.
We can just setup a system like the one we are discussing now, and there is no more need to work overtime to please the German Guys.
>
> Rob, what you brought into this list is a question of behavior and how one should interact with a community, but it has nothing to do with technical reasons, so I am not willing to discuss this any more on this list or in this thread.
>
I think I have explained what the problem was and why we don't want to use your registry anymore. It has policy that has nothing to
do with technical issues. The result is problems like the one we experienced.
Indeed there is no need to reply anymore. Our position is clear, and the whole problem has been worked around. You can delete our
registration, I have already removed all those AS numbers from hamnetdb objects.
Rob
DD9QP:
> Keep in mind that in Europe there is a "European HAMNET" driven by 16
> countries. It was founded in early 2000s and is using 16bit-ASNs because
> the 32bit-range was not available at that time. There is a registry to
> avoid ASN-doubles and it is working very well.
Well... We have been using that but the exact reason for this whole proposal
was that I was extremely p*ssed off this week when I discovered that this
registry only wants to allocate 1 contiguous range of AS numbers per country,
and allocates only tiny ranges. Every time one outgrows the range of numbers,
one is supposed to renumber the entire network. What a joke!
Initially we (the Netherlands) got an allocation of 4 AS numbers, and when
we needed more, the range immediately after that turned out to be already allocated
since before we got our 4. So we apparently had been put in a hole left by
someone else moving.
When I noted that I did not like this and would like a second block to expand
our allocation, the owner of the adjacent block was requested to renumber!!!
He even complained that he had to renumber twice before.
Then, we could expand our allocation to 19.
And this process was completed before I even could note that I did not want to
make others do the work that I did not see as useful.
So then the decision was made to leave that registry and find another solution
where neither we or others were forced to renumber or live with sub-optimal
solutions (trying to limit the number of ASN).
Our block can be returned to the free pool or be given back to the previous
owner in case he did not start the actual renumbering work.
Rob
