44net

44net@mailman.ampr.org

1 participants
3194 discussions

44/8 allocation
by lleachii.aol.com 19 Apr '14

19 Apr '14

Regarding the 44/8 and IANA: Please don't "shake the hornets' nest," by asking IANA or ARIN. While IANA issued the /8 when it ran "Internet Registry," it is actually referenced in RFCs. It is a technical fixture of the "DARPA Internet" that the 44/8 addresses are AMPRNET. The legal question of: "is an IP address property, and if so, do legacy IP holders have different property rights than those allocated from RIRs" is a DANGEROUS question to venture into having solved before IPv4 "goes the way" of thrift store dialup modems. Why? Because of all those who still hold legacy allocations: AMPRNet is the only one that is: - non-commercial - nonprofit - not part of military-industrial complex - not part of the big-pharmaceutical industry - not governmental - not part of big-telecom - not part of the financial industry - not part one the major corporations, nations or firms that help rebuild/establish/maintain the infrastructure of the globe during/after World War II What /8 do you think they'll try to take first when the world's number resources approach 0.01 /8's remaining to allocate??? -KB3VWG

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Running for ARDC director position
by Bart Kus 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

Hello, I'd like to join the board of ARDC. Having studied the situation a bit, it looks to me like ARDC is in a bad situation right now. Should Brian get hit by a bus, the corporation will no longer have any directors or officers. Its assets would then be disseminated by a court during the dismantling of the corporation. This means the address space would be given away to whoever the court decides, which could include ARIN for re-purposing as commercial space. I'm not 100% on this, since there is scant documentation on the heritage of 44/8 and its present legal ownership status. I believe it's "legacy space", but ARIN doesn't seem to agree: the netblock suffix does not end with -Z. As "legacy space" there should be some chain of ownership documented somewhere, and I'm just not finding it. Having read the bylaws, I also haven't managed to find how I might go about becoming elected. The processes for replacement and removal of directors are defined (majority vote of board members), but I don't see how elections to vacant positions are supposed to take place. I'd also like to say that a board electing itself is not the best model of governance for a non-profit corporation. Non-profits are supposed to serve some need: in this case the needs of amateurs who wish to make use of 44/8 space. I'd like to see a governance model where the users elect the directors who best represent their needs. This is one crucial governance change that I think absolutely needs to happen. Aside from governance, there are several technical issues that I'd like to see brought up to speed with modern standards, and published as part of official interface specifications for AMPRnet. I don't want to get too detailed in this email, but a top-level list of technical things I'd push for as director includes: 1) Support for BGP 2) Support for IPsec(AH) 3) Support for anycasting 4) An improved gateway registration process with IP ownership verification 5) Support for DNS delegation 6) Support for DNSSEC signing 7) Deployment of multiple regional Internet gateways to remove the UCSD single point of failure 8) Adoption of the Extensible Provisioning Protocol 9) Publication of official multi-platform software which simplifies the AMPRnet user experience I've experienced opposition on implementing points 3 and 5 so far, and I'm reluctant to attempt any more of these agenda items without some changes to how the organization makes decisions. There are no technical blockers here, as all of these technologies I mentioned are widely used on the Internet today. However, it's nearly impossible to achieve technical leadership when decisions require universal consensus, and/or the decision making process is undefined. AMPR needs more board members who can push such technologies forward, and participate in the official decision making process while relying on their deep technical expertise to ensure their votes are sound. In terms of my qualifications for board duty, I founded the HamWAN organization in Washington which has deployed a regional microwave network, uses AMPRnet IP space, and has based its standard designs on the latest & greatest hardware and software has to offer. Professionally, I'd been running Internet services since 1996. Presently I work on routing for a major cloud provider. I'd like to bring the same kind of innovation to AMPRnet as I did with HamWAN. On the governance standpoint, I drafted the HamWAN bylaws in very intentional ways. Ways that empower the volunteers who are doing the active work that contributes to progress. Governance overhead is minimal so everyone can just mostly focus on the problems at hand. So, what are the next steps here? --Bart

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Mailing list suggestions
by Dean Gibson AE7Q 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

1. Minor: That everyone include his/her callsign as part of the message, either in the "From" line (my preference) or in the signature. 2. Major: That messages with a subject line that includes the name of a digest, be blocked/rejected. This is not to be cruel or mean, but to insure that others (like me) actually read the message. I doubt that I'm the only one that refuses to read messages with a subject line that is a digest name.

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Re: [44net] 44Net Digest, Vol 3, Issue 75
by Rob Janssen 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

44net-request(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote: > Subject: > Re: [44net] Running for ARDC director position > From: > "." <lleachii(a)aol.com> > Date: > 04/18/2014 04:59 PM > > To: > 44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu > > > I keep a little copy/paste history and info athttp://kb3vwg-010.ampr.org but I'm definitely not the AMPR historian, by experience. I checked there and I read: There are two negative aspects I can think of: - Speed: Even an IP frame from one host in Germany to another has to go via ucsd.edu . That way it has to cross the Atlantic two times. That is not correct. The tunnel mesh does not work like that. Traffic between 44net hosts flows directly from gateway to gateway in an IPIP tunnel between them. amprgw is not involved in that at all. Only traffic from outside to inside 44net is via amprgw, and there are now other gateways as well that serve smaller subnets (e.g. in Belgium and Germany). All gateways have IPIP tunnels to all other gateways, and the traffic flows according to the shortest route via internet between the gateways. Rob

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Re: [44net] 44Net Digest, Vol 3, Issue 75
by Rob Janssen 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

44net-request(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu wrote: > Subject: > Re: [44net] Running for ARDC director position > From: > YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> > Date: > 04/18/2014 12:38 PM > > To: > AMPRNet working group <44net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu> > > > > This is very strange approach that I, frankly met nowhere else in ham world but here. > > I participated in number of noncommercial and hobby projects and the one of the main goals I always had was to document things to make it easier for people to learn, get involved and contribute. IMHO there is more than enough documentation around for people to learn, get involved and contribute. It is only for the types that want to know the reason for each and every bit that there may be a lack of documentation. It is my opinion that when they really need the detailed specification they claim is not available, they should write that themselves asking for input here on the mailinglist. But they rather prefer slashing everything that is there and claiming that it is all inferior. There really is not much to it, it is simply a meshed IPIP tunnel network with a gateway to the outside internet, and everyone with basic understanding of routing should be able to comprehend how it works. The software it is running on has changed over time so directions on how to get it working have to evolve as well. I have posted simple scripts for Linux on this list and I don't see what is wrong with them. Of course they are not "specification and documentation" but hey, there are only some 10 shell commands to it. Rob

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Ampr
by lleachii.aol.com 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

No respect for the youth! We'll talk about peering! -Lynwood KB3VWG 31 yrs young

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Re: [44net] Portal doesn't allow IPIP anycast via 44net
by lleachii＠aol.com 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

Tom, If I understand you correctly, even if the portal allowed you to enter a 44 address as an IPIP endpoint, my 44GW (and many others) would be able to send traffic to it. Since I wrote a script that quite a few people with Ubuntu Linux Gateways use (which was designed to closely mimic AMPRGW's behavior), here is what would occur (I cannot confirm this for other gateways using different OSes or scripts): see: http://kb3vwg-013.ampr.org/startampr - the gateways using the KB3VWG Linux script are set to use a custom routing table if the SRC or DST address is 44.0.0.0/8 - the rip44 then adds all 44 routes to the 44 routing table - so, as you wish a.) rip44 would add your tunneled subnet (44.24.240.0/20) to routing table 44 with an endpoint address as 44.24.221.1 b.) a host in my subnet sends your subnet a packet and is received by my router c.) it looks up the endpoint destination on table 44 and finds that it's 44.24.221.1 d.) my router will look in the routing table for 44.24.221.1 finds **44.24.221.1 via 169.228.66.251 dev tunl0** *****which would be **INVALID***** e.) **INVALID***My GW sends an encapsulated packet to AMPRGW, and it's received on it's WAN interface. ***AMPRGW should not receive encapsulated packets from 44 hosts destined to 44 hosts*** Routing loops can occur. - there have been IPIP tunnels in the past with 44 addresses, they were considered invalid configurations. To the Internet, 44 net is a flat /8 network and all subnets must be reachable at a non-44 address; which leads me to my last point - I'm not sure why you keep insisting that AMPR routing is "broken" or has "funky 44net issues," you are requesting something that was not intended in the design, as was mentioned before tunnels msut be reachable with non-44 address, BGP routed subnets must still maintain a IPIP GW. - This same topic was presented in April 2012, check the archive " ***"This will also means that any Operator that wishes to BGP should also consider also running the AMPR standard rip44d on the same device, if the intention is to make all 44/8 addresses equally reachable from any PoP, eventually, as is the intend purpose of BGP."*** - it was my intention update the script to include a block of IPENCAP from 44.0.0.0/8 SRC addresses...until I read your posts today 73, Lynwood KB3VWG Tom wrote: >Forget AMPRGW. I understand there is a routing issue at UCSD that >breaks 44net routing for AMPRGW. But I'm not asking about AMPRGW! I'm >asking about routing from all the IPIP gateways, none of which have >44net endpoints at the moment. > >Since none of the current IPIP gateways have 44net endpoints, you >cannot say with certainty that it won't work until the portal lets us >try it. > >Tom KD7LXL

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Re: [44net] Running for ARDC director position
by lleachii.aol.com 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

Charles There's a deeper issue than just signing the RSA. At this point, it's a big legal conundrum if the RIRs have control over those who've never signed an RSA. For all intents...some legacy IP networks "OWN" their allocation. No court has ever decided (or been asked to decide) that question. AMPR obtained their allocation from IANA before ARIN or the other RIRs even existed. The allocation was issued in an RFC named Assigned Numbers in 1991. -KB3VWG "." <lleachii(a)aol.com> wrote: >Should be: > >http://wiki.ampr.org

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Re: [44net] Running for ARDC director position
by ktolliver 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

The website names 3 people that are Boardmembers of ARDC. They are also the only 3 officers. According to the Bylaws these 3 control everything. No one else has any say in the control of the ARDC. There are no members. Just them. They can allow 2 more people on the Board, however, since they could remove the new Board members anytime they didn't like a vote or discussion, it's all illusory anyway. Until the Bylaws are modified to allow the voice of the users to be heard(via a right to vote) ARDC is just a closed 3 person entity. I too would like to see Bart on the Board. I lean towards his view of things. Id rather have 4 or 5 dictators than 3(sorry I think I meant 'Directors'). The current Bylaws give 100% of the control of the ARDC to the 3 Directors. I don't know the history behind it. It is a good way to get things done in a timely manner, but to have the wishes of the users heard----changes would be needed. The current Bylaws were written to concentrate power. Also, Bart, as a Board Member if you wanted to vote at a Regular Board Meeting they would have to make a Bylaw change so you could attend and vote via electronic communications. Right now to have your vote counted at a Regular Board Meeting you have to actually be there or proxy it; but not for Annual or Special Meetings. An income and expense statement, and a list of transactions would help with transparency. An Asset Statement only shows so much. My guess is that the existing Board has been carrying the group financially. The loan on the books suggests that. I thank them for doing so. Without clear information it's hard to know the needs of the organization. Publishing the Board minutes and a Budget might open our eyes to the workings of the group and make more people inclined to donate. We are a large diverse group. There are many views and ideas amongst us. I'm sure there are some people with deep pockets amongst us too, if needed. Hopefully, with more openness, more people will feel inclined to help financially and with their ideas. I thank the existing Board members for your dedicated service. You have done a lot. I hope I haven't offended you. It's just that I have created many nonprofits in my legal career;but not once have I made one with such a tight concentration of power. Maybe that's needed with an asset as valuable as the 44 Net, I don't know. It just seems odd in Amateur Radio. Anyway, I encourage you to put Bart and another interested person on the Board ASAP. Sharing the load should make things easier. And you can do it without even having to have an election;just appoint him/them. And then just before or at the next Annual Meeting change the Bylaws to allow users to have a vote in matters via proxy, electronic, or other methods. Heck, a new set of Bylaws would be good too. 73 Ken K7ICY ps I am new to the 44 Net. I don't know your past history. And you might have full minutes and financials posted somewhere. It's just real late and I'm too lazy to search them out. Sorry if I'm all wet. Feel free to Flame. All attorneys have thick skin and the Heat might help get me ready for the Hereafter. Sent from Samsung tablet

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Re: [44net] Running for ARDC director position
by . 18 Apr '14

18 Apr '14

Should be: http://wiki.ampr.org

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