I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF
I believe you are correct regarding the legality here in Canada. Since you would not be subject to the Amateur regulations if you go ISM. The only other issue that then arises is if you are using AMPRnet space on what then technically becomes a non-ham link, that is a question I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer to.
73, VE5LPL
Sincerely, Keaton Alexander Guger Lair A Saskatchewian guy who does stuff and things https://kagl.me me@kagl.me
On 2021-04-09 9:35 a.m., pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Thnaks for the feed back Keat
Well the AMPRnet space already goes trough part of the internet by VPN and those are encrypted, The legality of ecryption does not extend to other mean of transport of a signal then while on the RF side of things. NO?
________________________________________ De : 44Net 44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org de la part de Keaton Alexander Guger Lair via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 11:38 À : pete M via 44Net Cc : Keaton Alexander Guger Lair Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
I believe you are correct regarding the legality here in Canada. Since you would not be subject to the Amateur regulations if you go ISM. The only other issue that then arises is if you are using AMPRnet space on what then technically becomes a non-ham link, that is a question I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer to.
73, VE5LPL
Sincerely, Keaton Alexander Guger Lair A Saskatchewian guy who does stuff and things https://kagl.me me@kagl.me
On 2021-04-09 9:35 a.m., pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Well it of course depends on your local rules and the actual enforcement of those. Here in the Netherlands we happily use WPA2-EAP for user access (logging in with callsign as username and a randomly chosen password), and we use https on top of that without fear. The local radio authority is not at all interested in monitoring that kind of thing and acting on it. And indeed, when using ISM channels they have nothing to enforce at all, we are just regular users that happen to have an amateur radio license. We only need to make sure that we have proper DFS and power settings.
Rob
On 4/9/21 5:35 PM, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Well, you operate it under ISM rules because the Netherlands doesn't allow ordinary amateur traffic between 2400-2450 MHz accept for QSO's with amateur satellites. You pretend it is amateur traffic but for Dutch Law it isn't all, it just like your wifi at home. There is no other option to do it there in another way. So that the local authority is not interested is not correct, they are just not interested because they regard it as non licensed ism WiFi traffic of non importance. (and that is why you can encrypt it)
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 12:17, Rob PE1CHL via 44Net wrote:
Well it of course depends on your local rules and the actual enforcement of those. Here in the Netherlands we happily use WPA2-EAP for user access (logging in with callsign as username and a randomly chosen password), and we use https on top of that without fear. The local radio authority is not at all interested in monitoring that kind of thing and acting on it. And indeed, when using ISM channels they have nothing to enforce at all, we are just regular users that happen to have an amateur radio license. We only need to make sure that we have proper DFS and power settings.
Rob
On 4/9/21 5:35 PM, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
The reason we operate as ISM actually is that it is not possible in the Netherlands to get unattended operation licenses for 13cm and 6cm. E.g. in Germany that is possible, and they use that. Of course I would prefer to operate on the amateur bands when that would be possible, and use more power. (even when it would be possible to get such licenses it would likely be prohibitively expensive, depending a bit on how they would exactly bill them. that could be "per site" or "per frequency", but is likely to be the latter. the license fee is 280 euro...)
But my point is that the authority is not interested in what happens on amateur bands, unless there is interference to other services. There is no priority for monitoring bands and acting upon observations. Only when amateurs contact the authority with questions like "I notice that this station is using music clips in their transmissions, is that allowed?" or "there is a repeater on that channel that claims to be attended but I think it is not", there will be general directives to point out that this kind of operation is not allowed. But still there is no enforcement for it.
Rob
On 4/9/21 7:35 PM, Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net wrote:
Well, you operate it under ISM rules because the Netherlands doesn't allow ordinary amateur traffic between 2400-2450 MHz accept for QSO's with amateur satellites. You pretend it is amateur traffic but for Dutch Law it isn't all, it just like your wifi at home. There is no other option to do it there in another way. So that the local authority is not interested is not correct, they are just not interested because they regard it as non licensed ism WiFi traffic of non importance. (and that is why you can encrypt it)
Bob VE3TOK
hi, maybe not exactly answering the original quaestion, but informative:
http://hamwan.org/Standards/Network%20Engineering/Authentication/SSH%20Witho... http://hamwan.org/Standards/Network%20Engineering/Authentication/SSL%20witho... http://hamwan.org/Labs/RouterOS%20Extensions.html
same here, traffic needs to be in the clear, control/admin channels can and should be protected.
73 de stefan ei4ku
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link doesn't operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link doesn't operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band. Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal? I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules. Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
And then you can use the frequency allocation for ham, with the max bandwith/power setting granted by the ham licence.
Like they said with greater power you have greater responsability. ;-)
So for ham group that decide to run a kind of backbone to links ham site and ham user together, the best is to stay within the ISM band for the transport layer and keep encryption on to protect the space from unwanted users. And to drop to other frequency specific to the ham band usage like the 900MHZ or just lower then the 2.4ghz band and run unencrypted there, anyways those are local distribution.
One question do arise still. What about security of the communication to a router or a device that need credential to run on the network? of course there is always the TELNET possibility. or HTTP vs SSH and HTTPS But that is looking for trouble. The credential will be in plain text and that is a no no in any type of situation. Lets imagine a young hacker finding that on the tower close to his home there is a 2.4ghz open channel at -1 without encryption. He can sniff the packet all day long till he find something interresting. Some will say that we can use mac adress white listing, yes, but mac adress can be spoofed and when a user disconnect, the young "researcher" will be able to connect posing as the disconneted ham. From there he will have access to the whole network and who knows what he will try to do.
As the control operator of those network we have the responsability to protect them from wrong utilisation. I think that this need to be brought way higher into the realm of the legislators.
Now Can I ask if any canadian did start to bring it to the legislator playground?
Pierre VE2PF
________________________________________ De : 44Net 44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org de la part de Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 12:25 À : 44net@mailman.ampr.org Cc : Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link doesn't operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band. Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal? I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules. Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
_________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
Pierre,
2.4 GHz open channel -1, what means one channel below 2.4 GHz, I would go lower so that my pass-band doesn't overlap the beginning of that ISM band, as I want to avoid any interfere for a permanent link or hackers :-)
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 13:29, pete M via 44Net wrote:
You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
And then you can use the frequency allocation for ham, with the max bandwith/power setting granted by the ham licence.
Like they said with greater power you have greater responsability. ;-)
So for ham group that decide to run a kind of backbone to links ham site and ham user together, the best is to stay within the ISM band for the transport layer and keep encryption on to protect the space from unwanted users. And to drop to other frequency specific to the ham band usage like the 900MHZ or just lower then the 2.4ghz band and run unencrypted there, anyways those are local distribution.
One question do arise still. What about security of the communication to a router or a device that need credential to run on the network? of course there is always the TELNET possibility. or HTTP vs SSH and HTTPS But that is looking for trouble. The credential will be in plain text and that is a no no in any type of situation. Lets imagine a young hacker finding that on the tower close to his home there is a 2.4ghz open channel at -1 without encryption. He can sniff the packet all day long till he find something interresting. Some will say that we can use mac adress white listing, yes, but mac adress can be spoofed and when a user disconnect, the young "researcher" will be able to connect posing as the disconneted ham. From there he will have access to the whole network and who knows what he will try to do.
As the control operator of those network we have the responsability to protect them from wrong utilisation. I think that this need to be brought way higher into the realm of the legislators.
Now Can I ask if any canadian did start to bring it to the legislator playground?
Pierre VE2PF
De : 44Net 44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com@mailman.ampr.org de la part de Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 12:25 À : 44net@mailman.ampr.org Cc : Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link doesn't operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that are type accepted for that band. Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal? I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand that we are now out of the ISM band rules. Pierre VE2PF _________________________________________ 44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
44Net mailing list 44Net@mailman.ampr.org https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
-
Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty -
ei4ku＠ei4ku.ampr.org -
Keaton Alexander Guger Lair -
pete M -
Rob PE1CHL