9 Apr
2021
9 Apr
'21
4:35 p.m.
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am asking here if anyone had some
factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
9 Apr
9 Apr
4:38 p.m.
I believe you are correct regarding the legality here in Canada. Since
you would not be subject to the Amateur regulations if you go ISM. The
only other issue that then arises is if you are using AMPRnet space on
what then technically becomes a non-ham link, that is a question I'm not
even going to pretend to know the answer to.
73, VE5LPL
Sincerely,
Keaton Alexander Guger Lair
A Saskatchewian guy who does stuff and things
https://kagl.me me(a)kagl.me
On 2021-04-09 9:35 a.m., pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
4:46 p.m.
Thnaks for the feed back Keat
Well the AMPRnet space already goes trough part of the internet by VPN and those are
encrypted, The legality of ecryption does not extend to other mean of transport of a
signal then while on the RF side of things. NO?
________________________________________
De : 44Net <44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com(a)mailman.ampr.org> de la part de
Keaton Alexander Guger Lair via 44Net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 11:38
À : pete M via 44Net
Cc : Keaton Alexander Guger Lair
Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
I believe you are correct regarding the legality here in Canada. Since
you would not be subject to the Amateur regulations if you go ISM. The
only other issue that then arises is if you are using AMPRnet space on
what then technically becomes a non-ham link, that is a question I'm not
even going to pretend to know the answer to.
73, VE5LPL
Sincerely,
Keaton Alexander Guger Lair
A Saskatchewian guy who does stuff and things
https://kagl.me me(a)kagl.me
On 2021-04-09 9:35 a.m., pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
5:17 p.m.
Well it of course depends on your local rules and the actual enforcement of those.
Here in the Netherlands we happily use WPA2-EAP for user access (logging in with callsign
as username and a randomly chosen password), and we use https on top of that without
fear.
The local radio authority is not at all interested in monitoring that kind of thing and
acting on it.
And indeed, when using ISM channels they have nothing to enforce at all, we are just
regular users that happen to have an amateur radio license.
We only need to make sure that we have proper DFS and power settings.
Rob
On 4/9/21 5:35 PM, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
6:35 p.m.
Well, you operate it under ISM rules because the Netherlands doesn't allow ordinary
amateur traffic between 2400-2450 MHz accept for QSO's with amateur satellites.
You pretend it is amateur traffic but for Dutch Law it isn't all, it just like your
wifi at home. There is no other option to do it there in another way. So that the local
authority is not interested is not correct, they are just not interested because they
regard it as non licensed ism WiFi traffic of non importance. (and that is why you can
encrypt it)
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 12:17, Rob PE1CHL via 44Net wrote:
Well it of course depends on your local rules and the
actual enforcement of those.
Here in the Netherlands we happily use WPA2-EAP for user access (logging in with callsign
as username and a randomly chosen password), and we use https on top of that without
fear.
The local radio authority is not at all interested in monitoring that kind of thing and
acting on it.
And indeed, when using ISM channels they have nothing to enforce at all, we are just
regular users that happen to have an amateur radio license.
We only need to make sure that we have proper DFS and power settings.
Rob
On 4/9/21 5:35 PM, pete M via 44Net wrote:
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
I dont know what is the status of this case but I
am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
7:42 p.m.
The reason we operate as ISM actually is that it is not possible in the Netherlands to get
unattended operation licenses for 13cm and 6cm.
E.g. in Germany that is possible, and they use that.
Of course I would prefer to operate on the amateur bands when that would be possible, and
use more power.
(even when it would be possible to get such licenses it would likely be prohibitively
expensive, depending a bit on how they would exactly bill them. that could be "per
site" or "per frequency", but is likely to be the latter. the license fee
is 280 euro...)
But my point is that the authority is not interested in what happens on amateur bands,
unless there is interference to other services.
There is no priority for monitoring bands and acting upon observations. Only when
amateurs contact the authority with questions like "I notice that this station is
using music clips in their transmissions, is that allowed?" or "there is a
repeater on that channel that claims to be attended but I think it is not", there
will be general directives to point out that this kind of operation is not allowed. But
still there is no enforcement for it.
Rob
On 4/9/21 7:35 PM, Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net wrote:
Well, you operate it under ISM rules because the
Netherlands doesn't allow ordinary amateur traffic between 2400-2450 MHz accept for
QSO's with amateur satellites.
You pretend it is amateur traffic but for Dutch Law it isn't all, it just like your
wifi at home. There is no other option to do it there in another way. So that the local
authority is not interested is not correct, they are just not interested because they
regard it as non licensed ism WiFi traffic of non importance. (and that is why you can
encrypt it)
Bob VE3TOK
8:22 p.m.
hi, maybe not exactly answering the original quaestion, but informative:
http://hamwan.org/Standards/Network%20Engineering/Authentication/SSH%20With…
http://hamwan.org/Standards/Network%20Engineering/Authentication/SSL%20with…
http://hamwan.org/Labs/RouterOS%20Extensions.html
same here, traffic needs to be in the clear,
control/admin channels can and should be protected.
73 de stefan ei4ku
5:21 p.m.
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for
instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link
doesn't
operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove
the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law
is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
5:25 p.m.
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for
instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link
doesn't
operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove
the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law
is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
6:29 p.m.
You can operate it under your ham licence when you
remove the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations.
The law is clear.
And then you can use the frequency allocation for ham, with the max bandwith/power setting
granted by the ham licence.
Like they said with greater power you have greater responsability. ;-)
So for ham group that decide to run a kind of backbone to links ham site and ham user
together, the best is to stay within the ISM band for the transport layer and keep
encryption on to protect the space from unwanted users. And to drop to other frequency
specific to the ham band usage like the 900MHZ or just lower then the 2.4ghz band and run
unencrypted there, anyways those are local distribution.
One question do arise still. What about security of the communication to a router or a
device that need credential to run on the network? of course there is always the TELNET
possibility. or HTTP vs SSH and HTTPS But that is looking for trouble. The credential will
be in plain text and that is a no no in any type of situation. Lets imagine a young hacker
finding that on the tower close to his home there is a 2.4ghz open channel at -1 without
encryption. He can sniff the packet all day long till he find something interresting. Some
will say that we can use mac adress white listing, yes, but mac adress can be spoofed and
when a user disconnect, the young "researcher" will be able to connect posing as
the disconneted ham. From there he will have access to the whole network and who knows
what he will try to do.
As the control operator of those network we have the responsability to protect them from
wrong utilisation. I think that this need to be brought way higher into the realm of the
legislators.
Now Can I ask if any canadian did start to bring it to the legislator playground?
Pierre
VE2PF
________________________________________
De : 44Net <44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com(a)mailman.ampr.org> de la part de
Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 12:25
À : 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
Cc : Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty
Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for
instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link
doesn't
operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove
the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law
is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I am
asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
10:42 p.m.
Pierre,
2.4 GHz open channel -1, what means one channel below 2.4 GHz, I would go lower so that my
pass-band doesn't overlap
the beginning of that ISM band, as I want to avoid any interfere for a permanent link or
hackers :-)
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 13:29, pete M via 44Net wrote:
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
You can
operate it under your ham licence when you remove the encryption at the proper frequencies
and according to the amateur regulations. The law is clear.
And then you can use
the frequency allocation for ham, with the max bandwith/power setting granted by the ham
licence.
Like they said with greater power you have greater responsability. ;-)
So for ham group that decide to run a kind of backbone to links ham site and ham user
together, the best is to stay within the ISM band for the transport layer and keep
encryption on to protect the space from unwanted users. And to drop to other frequency
specific to the ham band usage like the 900MHZ or just lower then the 2.4ghz band and run
unencrypted there, anyways those are local distribution.
One question do arise still. What about security of the communication to a router or a
device that need credential to run on the network? of course there is always the TELNET
possibility. or HTTP vs SSH and HTTPS But that is looking for trouble. The credential will
be in plain text and that is a no no in any type of situation. Lets imagine a young hacker
finding that on the tower close to his home there is a 2.4ghz open channel at -1 without
encryption. He can sniff the packet all day long till he find something interresting. Some
will say that we can use mac adress white listing, yes, but mac adress can be spoofed and
when a user disconnect, the young "researcher" will be able to connect posing as
the disconneted ham. From there he will have access to the whole network and who knows
what he will try to do.
As the control operator of those network we have the responsability to protect them from
wrong utilisation. I think that this need to be brought way higher into the realm of the
legislators.
Now Can I ask if any canadian did start to bring it to the legislator playground?
Pierre
VE2PF
________________________________________
De : 44Net <44net-bounces+petem001=hotmail.com(a)mailman.ampr.org> de la part de
Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty via 44Net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Envoyé : 9 avril 2021 12:25
À : 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
Cc : Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty
Objet : Re: [44net] Encrypted links on 5.8ghz. (WPA)
You cannot use it under you ham licence when it is encrypted. If you use it use for
instance to link your gateway with whatever ham radios then still that encrypted link
doesn't
operate under your ham licence. You can operate it under your ham licence when you remove
the encryption at the proper frequencies and according to the amateur regulations. The law
is clear.
Bob VE3TOK
On 2021-04-09 11:35, pete M via 44Net wrote:
I dont know what is the status of this case but I
am asking here if anyone had some factual information on this.
As we are using the frequency that are into the ISM band, We are also using device that
are type accepted for that band.
Those device are used legally with encryption by normal lambda user. If we dont modify
the device power and frequency would it be legal for ham to also encrypt the signal?
I understand that if we would use a higher power, different channel I would understand
that we are now out of the ISM band rules.
Pierre
VE2PF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
--
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
Max Planck
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)mailman.ampr.org
https://mailman.ampr.org/mailman/listinfo/44net
1123
days inactive
1123
days old
10 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Boudewijn (Bob) Tenty -
ei4ku＠ei4ku.ampr.org -
Keaton Alexander Guger Lair -
pete M -
Rob PE1CHL