On 5/15/24 10:03, Dave Gingrich via 44net wrote: Callsign is KC1KZT, but isn't this a general question about how levels of trust expire and what happens after? 73, Cara KC1KZT

On 16/5/24 00:07, Razvan via 44net wrote: Worth noting here… call-sign verification is going to get more difficult for some of us in the future. Here in Australia, amateur radio recently moved (for better or worse) to a class-licensing system wherein the ACMA no longer manages the assignment of call-signs. (Prior to this, it was officially under an apparatus-license scheme, but was effectively policed like a class-license.) This means that over time, call-signs will disappear from the ACMA database. They also haven't issued paper licenses in some 8 years or so. I managed to fish out what will possibly be my last ACMA-issued license prior to the class license taking effect earlier this year. There's debate as to whether the ACMA should continue to keep that information, or whether another body (e.g. the WIA) manage that. So procedures in this space will likely need to be amended over the coming months. Regards, -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

Here in the Netherlands, the official authority still manages the callsigns, although we do not have a "license" anymore, only a "registration". The amateur bands have been put in the license-free category with the exception that you need to register a callsign to use those bands, and with the note that to register a callsign you first need to pass an exam. Sounds similar in result, but judicially it is completely different. The exams have already been outsourced, it could happen with the registrations as well. Also, under the European privacy rulings, access to registered callsign information is very limited. There is no way at all to obtain holder information for a callsign, the only thing you can verify is if a given callsign is currently "in use", or has been used in the past and is thus not available for allocation. This is done via a webpage that has a low limit on usage. There is no way anymore to download a list of all issued callsigns and their status. I used that to compare the list of callsigns with the IP address registrations I managed, and remove addresses for callsigns that are no longer valid. Cannot do that anymore. Before, someone ran a weekly job to try all possible callsigns on that webpage and compiled a list, but this was detected and now it cannot be done anymore due to the rate limiting. Anyway, it is quite easy to fake the status of one's license holdings. I think that it is even more difficult for a random outsider (someone handling tickets) than it was for me personally, as of course when I got a request that seemed a bit fishy I had lots of ways to see what was going on. E.g. I have seen two cases where people claimed to have a license and requested a BGP-routed /24, but from some research it turned out they or their son was running a small webhosting company. I think that will be more difficult do find that kind of problems because local coordinators are not involved anymore. Rob On 2024-05-16 06:38, Peter Hannay via 44net wrote:

Just to elaborate on an important point: In the UK, due to data protection laws, there is absolutely no way a third party can validate that a given person holds a given callsign. In suspect this will also be the case across large parts of Europe. Tom On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 09:32, Ellis Birt via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:

I don’t believe we have had paper licences in the UK for 20 years now. I have an account on the OFCOM, so the “Quasi-Autonomous Government Body” (QUANGO) web site. This allows me to download a PDF of my licence, which includes my call sign, licence class and both a station address and a postal address. I checked and the PDF is not secured in any way. So is open to tampering. I also hold a Spanish Licence, EA7KAE, and for this I have a word document, which again appears to be totally unsecured. They also supply a printable ID card embedded in the word document. In both cases the licences do not have an expiry date. Dave From: Peter Hannay via 44net &lt;44net(a)mailman.ampr.org&gt; Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 5:39 AM To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Re: Level of Trust Expiration? Just a quick correction to the below, ACMA does indeed still manage call signs, they don't manage licences for individual amateurs though. The call sign register is here: https://www.acma.gov.au/call-signs I'm not sure how we can prove ownership of a particular call sign anymore though. How is this currently handled in the UK? I believe they currently have a similar system to Australia. Cheers Peter VK6HAX On Thu, 16 May 2024, 8:00 am Stuart Longland VK4MSL via 44net, &lt;44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> > wrote: On 16/5/24 00:07, Razvan via 44net wrote: Worth noting here… call-sign verification is going to get more difficult for some of us in the future. Here in Australia, amateur radio recently moved (for better or worse) to a class-licensing system wherein the ACMA no longer manages the assignment of call-signs. (Prior to this, it was officially under an apparatus-license scheme, but was effectively policed like a class-license.) This means that over time, call-signs will disappear from the ACMA database. They also haven't issued paper licenses in some 8 years or so. I managed to fish out what will possibly be my last ACMA-issued license prior to the class license taking effect earlier this year. There's debate as to whether the ACMA should continue to keep that information, or whether another body (e.g. the WIA) manage that. So procedures in this space will likely need to be amended over the coming months. Regards, -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere. _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>

The FCC / hard copy situation is a bit ironic as the FCC in the US also stopped issuing paper printouts. Instead, you get an official PDF from their website, but it is easily faked. I have a stack of watermarked green security paper I've been using to print my licenses on. Happy to run some official-looking prints for local hams if anybody is interested. The license validation process is indeed a bit broken these days. Ideally, the issuing authorities should also be minting a digital certificate with your license details, the private key to which you could keep private. This could then be used online for mutual TLS and automated validation of a license-holder's status. A cryptography geek can dream.... Cheers, jof On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 10:07, Cliff Sojourner via 44net &lt;44net(a)mailman.ampr.org&gt; wrote:

I'll share the Spanish situation: After passing your exam and paying a fee, you obtain an Authorization with your call sign, this allows you to operate in the ham bands, and is all that is required for portable and mobile operation. It is nowadays (usually) a digitally signed PDF available in two versions: the "classic" one and the "card" format. Then there is the amateur station licence, which is required to install and operate a fixed station, and is concerned with the legality of your antenna and transmission lines, intereference, and civil engineering concerns (such as wind loads and other stuff about which I know nothing). If you move or change your personal details, you send an electronic request to the local Telecommunications authority and they send you a new PDF with the data amended. Since the PDFs are digitally signed, one can verify they're genuine by checking them in an official website or checking the validity of the signature in Adobe Reader. 73 de EA4FYQ On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 2:28 PM Philip Paeps via 44net < 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org&gt; wrote: