25 Apr
2014
25 Apr
'14
12:02 a.m.
On 4/24/14, 6:54 PM, K7VE - John wrote:
I think the better model is BGP "nodes"
which provide VPN to subnets.
The BGP node admins would provide the VPN authentication to know what
subnets were attaching and BGP would provide Internet connectivity
(including subnets).
+1
I trust my VPN users and announce via BGP to the global routing table. If you
want to trust my routes cool, if not that's cool too.
I think everyone is over-thinking this. It does no good if the majority of
traffic over 44net allocations is ping and traceroute. Let shit flow and see
what happens.
IF some one starts abusing it, shut it down and fix it. It's like a repeater
when there is a jammer. Once you're aware of it, you shut it down till they
go away and you're not liable for it.
--
Bryan Fields
727-409-1194 - Voice
727-214-2508 - Fax
http://bryanfields.net
25 Apr
25 Apr
12:24 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
I'm of the opinion that it should be kept the simplest possible and let
people deal with their own networks. Give the people the basics needed to
create a connection and get the routes. Then if they want to block people,
they can add a static route dropping them or a firewall rule.
I feel BGP over GRE or DMVPN is overkill as beyond the extra functionality
of GRE being able to do multicast and other kinds of traffic, there is no
added value to what we already have with IPIP and RIP44d/encap. Within
44net, it's a different story - go RIP/OSPF and IPSec for all I care. But
setting up tunnels should be kept simplistic.
12:32 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
You wouldn't do BGP over tunnels. BGP is for the "border" nodes, e.g.
those nodes which connect the pieces of 44 into the Internet. If you
want to use IPIP behind the BGP, or GRE, L2TP, within your subnets,
nobody should care -- but this every node has an "encap.txt" file is,
IMHO, crazy.
BGP node provides endpoint for tunnels (VPN, IPIP, etc.)
subnet nodes connect to the BGP node via tunnel, the BGP node routes
to the rest of 44.x.x.x and the Internet.
Then the simple node is easy.
Who is my BGP border node?
How do I VPN to it?
Set up VPN (or Tunnel) to it.
Done.
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> I'm of the opinion that it should be kept the simplest possible and let
> people deal with their own networks. Give the people the basics needed to
> create a connection and get the routes. Then if they want to block people,
> they can add a static route dropping them or a firewall rule.
>
> I feel BGP over GRE or DMVPN is overkill as beyond the extra functionality
> of GRE being able to do multicast and other kinds of traffic, there is no
> added value to what we already have with IPIP and RIP44d/encap. Within
> 44net, it's a different story - go RIP/OSPF and IPSec for all I care. But
> setting up tunnels should be kept simplistic.
>
12:56 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
BGP is for the "border" nodes, e.g.
those nodes which connect the pieces of 44 into the Internet. If you
want to use IPIP behind the BGP, or GRE, L2TP, within your subnets,
nobody should care -- but this every node has an "encap.txt" file is,
IMHO, crazy.
ONTH - it provides a layer of robustness and redundancy...
BGP node provides endpoint for tunnels (VPN, IPIP,
etc.)
subnet nodes connect to the BGP node via tunnel, the BGP node routes
to the rest of 44.x.x.x and the Internet.
Then the simple node is easy.
Who is my BGP border node?
How do I VPN to it?
Set up VPN (or Tunnel) to it.
Done.
If the BGP border node is gone - then what is the back up process????
2:38 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
You would still need to have at least one "master" tunnel to be able to get
the VPN information to form tunnels. All DMVPN connections have one
dedicated link to a "hub" router. Which means having to keep a fleet of
machines (assuming you don't want a SPOF) that will act as the "master"
routers serving all the "spoke" routers.
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 4:32 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> You wouldn't do BGP over tunnels. BGP is for the "border" nodes, e.g.
> those nodes which connect the pieces of 44 into the Internet. If you
> want to use IPIP behind the BGP, or GRE, L2TP, within your subnets,
> nobody should care -- but this every node has an "encap.txt" file is,
> IMHO, crazy.
>
> BGP node provides endpoint for tunnels (VPN, IPIP, etc.)
> subnet nodes connect to the BGP node via tunnel, the BGP node routes
> to the rest of 44.x.x.x and the Internet.
>
> Then the simple node is easy.
>
> Who is my BGP border node?
> How do I VPN to it?
> Set up VPN (or Tunnel) to it.
> Done.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> John D. Hays
> K7VE
> PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
> > (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> > _______________________________________________
> > I'm of the opinion that it should be kept the simplest possible and let
> > people deal with their own networks. Give the people the basics needed
> to
> > create a connection and get the routes. Then if they want to block
> people,
> > they can add a static route dropping them or a firewall rule.
> >
> > I feel BGP over GRE or DMVPN is overkill as beyond the extra
> functionality
> > of GRE being able to do multicast and other kinds of traffic, there is no
> > added value to what we already have with IPIP and RIP44d/encap. Within
> > 44net, it's a different story - go RIP/OSPF and IPSec for all I care.
> But
> > setting up tunnels should be kept simplistic.
> >
1:25 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Why would you add the complexity of BGP over GRE? I guess you could if you
wanted to but the 2 protocols have extremely different uses. Use BGP to
connect with one or more network service providers where you then bring
your own address space. Use GRE to build tunnels into those networks.
once BGP peered to the internet cloud, let the cloud do the routing and
delivery between networks for you. Obviously if you have a direct point to
point route between these networks (over radio) that may be preferable, but
then again if you have such a link then maybe it's a good idea for those
networks to peer based upon a common agreed upon roting policy.
Eric
AF6EP
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> I'm of the opinion that it should be kept the simplest possible and let
> people deal with their own networks. Give the people the basics needed to
> create a connection and get the routes. Then if they want to block people,
> they can add a static route dropping them or a firewall rule.
>
> I feel BGP over GRE or DMVPN is overkill as beyond the extra functionality
> of GRE being able to do multicast and other kinds of traffic, there is no
> added value to what we already have with IPIP and RIP44d/encap. Within
> 44net, it's a different story - go RIP/OSPF and IPSec for all I care. But
> setting up tunnels should be kept simplistic.
>
2:51 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Eric Fort <eric.fort(a)gmail.com> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
Why would you add the complexity of BGP over GRE?
It allows flexible routing... but I still stand by BGP being overkill for
44net and adds additional hassles of AS numbers to manage and keep track of
along with hard limits of AS numbers unless you start doing 4-byte ASN's...
which increases more information to keep track of and manage. We're having
enough issues keeping DNS managed in a global sense as it is...
I guess you could if you
wanted to but the 2 protocols have extremely different uses. Use BGP to
connect with one or more network service providers where you then bring
your own address space. Use GRE to build tunnels into those networks.
once BGP peered to the internet cloud, let the cloud do the routing and
delivery between networks for you.
I think John means this would be a private BGP and AS and not something
requiring something from IANA/RIR's. You would still need a tunnel back to
a master hub to get GRE tunnel information via NHRP as that information
isn't obtain by BGP magic.
Obviously if you have a direct point to
point route between these networks (over radio) that may be preferable, but
then again if you have such a link then maybe it's a good idea for those
networks to peer based upon a common agreed upon roting policy.
With most any routing protocol... BGP for instance it would advertise that
your network is available via AS numbers. But most routing protocols do
exactly the same thing. BGP just adds alot of extra options like a luxury
car so that you can tune your traffic as you'd like (for instance you can
advertise that you want most of your ingress traffic to come over RF unless
the link is over 80% utilization in which case you can have them come over
another network connection.
4:02 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
No, I mean BGP out to the Internet, not to private peer relationships.
Once a 44.x.x.x subnet is routable to the Internet, it is routable to
all other 44.x.x.x subnets that also have access to the Internet.
There really would only need to be a few BGP (border) nodes and they
would most likely be routers, like CIscos or Mikrotiks (higher end
units). Those routers would provide tunnels whether IPIP or VPN out
to subnets in the 44.x.x.x space and route traffic for those subnets
both to other 44.x.x.x subnets or the Internet in general.
For example this router http://routerboard.com/CCR1009-8G-1S has a
level 6 license, which means it has no license limit on the number of
VPNs/Tunnels it supports. Depending on traffic and ingress/egress
bandwidth it could probably support many /16 vpns. In turn, a local
network would be able to run a modest router, e.g.
http://routerboard.com/RB750GL and in turn route to upto 200 smaller
VPNs/Tunnels. For reliability the border nodes might multi-home their
subnets at 2 or more data centers.
44.x.x.x is part of the Internet's addressable space. If we don't use
it in that way, we may as well turn it back and just use 10.x.x.x
I guess you could if you
wanted to but the 2 protocols have extremely different uses. Use BGP to
connect with one or more network service providers where you then bring
your own address space. Use GRE to build tunnels into those networks.
once BGP peered to the internet cloud, let the cloud do the routing and
delivery between networks for you.
I think John means this would be a private BGP and AS and not something
requiring something from IANA/RIR's. You would still need a tunnel back to
a master hub to get GRE tunnel information via NHRP as that information
isn't obtain by BGP magic.
6:29 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:02:26 -0700, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
44.x.x.x is part of the Internet's addressable
space. If we don't use
it in that way, we may as well turn it back and just use 10.x.x.x
The same rationale would and should apply to companies like GE. They
have 3.x.x.x/8 and they use them internally, not just the Internet
facing hosts, but every host in their system. Then they pile VLANs on
top of the same hardware and run 10.x's all over for "security" or
"legacy" purposes.It makes no sense to me to see them using net 3 for
hosts that are behind firewalls and proxies or which are never
intended to be reachable from anywhere outside their systems.
Exactly how do big corporations interconnect their islands of
facilities? Isn't their topology exactly like the one we face?
--
Geoff Joy - ke6qh -
AmprNet IP Address Coordinator for San Bernardino & Riverside Counties.
(44.18/16)
8:04 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:29 PM, Geoff Joy <geoff(a)windowmeister.com> wrote:
Exactly how do big corporations interconnect their
islands of
facilities? Isn't their topology exactly like the one we face?
You'd be surprised how quickly a 10/8 can get eaten up. Between cassandra
clusters, redis nodes, memcache machines, application servers,
infrastructure servers, relational databases, webservers, end users and
management systems, at the mega-corps that I've worked for, a 10/8 may
cover a couple data center not including different trust zones which may
also have different subnets and vlans or the public/private ingress/egress
addresses. Most modern shops use virtualization and blade technology
extensively to shrink the footprint and build applications that work on
scaling for better availability.
The current debate revolves mostly around WAN linking at a technical level,
Public/Private ingress/egress and Authentication. I don't think routing is
much of a concern as once they can figure out the WAN portion, usually
routing isn't an issue.. unless it touches on one of the three I previously
mentioned.
In corporations, someone with a high enough position and budget says 'make
it happen' and hundreds of minions beneath make 'it' happen.
But this is a "public" network where no one trust one another (being that
IP addressing doesn't identify someone) there needs to be some basic
framework of communications between islands and the right allowances to
interconnect to the larger Internet. Then let those islands figure out all
the politics of encrypting authentication or global/private routing between
themselves as long as it's opt-in not opt-out.
6:37 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 8:02 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
No, I mean BGP out to the Internet, not to private
peer relationships.
Once a 44.x.x.x subnet is routable to the Internet, it is routable to
all other 44.x.x.x subnets that also have access to the Internet.
Most people wouldn't be able to take advantage of this sort of connection
because most people aren't running datacenters in their houses or have that
level of connectivity at their fingertips.
There really would only need to be a few BGP (border)
nodes and they
would most likely be routers, like CIscos or Mikrotiks (higher end
units). Those routers would provide tunnels whether IPIP or VPN out
to subnets in the 44.x.x.x space and route traffic for those subnets
both to other 44.x.x.x subnets or the Internet in general.
In this configuration, all these BGP routers would not only have to take in
the load for the entire network and figure out between them where the
traffic goes, but also pump out the traffic. Since many places charge for
bandwidth, it becomes a network system running at a financial loss to those
operators instead of a cost neutral basis which it is now. I'm willing to
bet that the FCC is going to walk away from net neutrality therefore it's
only a matter of time before traffic is metered on both ends.
Additionally, this configuration would also have no mitigation against DoS
attacks as likely the target is within the network so should you try and
blacklist the target or shun at a peer upstream, the DoS traffic will just
redirect to one of the BGP routers that states it is accepting traffic for
it that you don't control and the same thing happens. Larger groups of
people are affected instead of smaller islands.
But if you're saying we should just consolidate 44net into a bank of
geographically located routers owned and managed and billed by ARDC, then
maybe it should be brought up to the directors as discussed in last week's
thread. Personally, this may be the better way of going as getting more
than two people to agree on here seems almost impossible...
For example this router
http://routerboard.com/CCR1009-8G-1S has a
level 6 license, which means it has no license limit on the number of
VPNs/Tunnels it supports. Depending on traffic and ingress/egress
bandwidth it could probably support many /16 vpns. In turn, a local
network would be able to run a modest router, e.g.
http://routerboard.com/RB750GL and in turn route to upto 200 smaller
VPNs/Tunnels. For reliability the border nodes might multi-home their
subnets at 2 or more data centers.
In a DMVPN configuration, you can get away with having smaller numbers of
VPN's as they're dynamically built and disconnected. But these routers
don't support DMVPN or GRE. One would be better off with a RaspberryPi and
a custom linux build vs buying one of these devices.
We should always keep in mind that there are many of us that aren't as well
connected as others and may not have access to data centers.
Having a simpler network lowers the bar of entry so that everyone who
doesn't have access to a colocation or a willing ISP that can broadcast BGP
announcements can at least participate at a peer level without someone
getting stuck for the check at the end of the day or being subject to
gatekeepers.
44.x.x.x is part of the Internet's addressable space. If we don't use
it in that way, we may as well turn it back and just
use 10.x.x.x
Except for when you are already using 10/8 as it's private non-routable
space. The whole point is that it should be routable to all. Not just
select network segments who can afford it.
7:07 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Don,
You are missing the whole point - Not everyone needs to run BGP, or
have a datacenter, they just need to find a border node who does and
VPN/Tunnel to it. It's called cooperation.
Those who can provide a BGP border node, can 'advertise' through this
list or portal.ampr.org that fact and how to get setup to tunnel/VPN
to them. Like I said some of these routers have 'unlimited' support
for VPN/Tunnel clients. You can also tier this architecture. A
single border router might be supporting 20 /16 VPNs/Tunnels to tier 2
routers, those routers might support 30 smaller subnets and so on ---
There are some peering points that are relatively inexpensive (or
free) and some individuals are in a position to be generous. This is
no different than the FM repeater operator who pays for a site,
equipment, and power costs to benefit a community of users, who may or
may not make donations to that cost.
Right now the total traffic on 44net could probably ride on a single
home broadband connection.
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Interface/Gre
The VPNs can be full up using available protocols MikroTik runs a
variety of VPN protocols PPTP, L2TP, IPIP, ... Cisco has DMVPN -- you
just have to find a common one between two routers.
I run my personal /24 (non-44net) over a VPN 24x7 and have several
hosts, including D-STAR gateways running over it.
http://www.seattleix.net/rules.htm
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
7:40 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 2014-04-24 23:07, K7VE - John wrote:
...
Right now the total traffic on 44net could probably ride on a single home broadband
connection.
Don't be too sure; some of the German sites are running webcams
refreshed every ten minutes ... and yes, I've viewing them.
7:47 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:07 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
Don,
John,
You are missing the whole point
Not at all.
- Not everyone needs to run BGP, or
have a datacenter, they just need to find a border node who does and
VPN/Tunnel to it. It's called cooperation.
Actually, unless this is agreed upon by everyone, this is just an idea.
Not cooperation. Cooperation requires that all parties are willing to
accept to the terms and conditions which many have been against.
Those who can provide a BGP border node,
This alone raises the bar for many people beyond those of normal radio
operators.
can 'advertise' through this
list or portal.ampr.org that fact
and how to get setup to tunnel/VPN
to them.
Isn't that encap.txt? :)
I digress... it still requires a sharing of configurations, secrets and
certificates depending on type of tunnel being built. We were talking
about DMVPN earlier so that was the example I used.
Like I said some of these routers have
'unlimited' support
for VPN/Tunnel clients. You can also tier this architecture. A
single border router might be supporting 20 /16 VPNs/Tunnels to tier 2
routers, those routers might support 30 smaller subnets and so on ---
You don't need to sell me... I'm covered for networking gear. Maybe the
next startup I ride into the ground will net me a Cisco Nexus. ;)
There are some peering points that are relatively
inexpensive (or
free) and some individuals are in a position to be generous.
Yes. But I was speaking of others in other parts of the world not here on
the west coast where it's not the case. We shouldn't be so myopic in our
world view to not consider those cases.
This is
no different than the FM repeater operator who pays for a site,
equipment, and power costs to benefit a community of users, who may or
may not make donations to that cost.
Granted. But usually the repeater is operated by a club or group. And if
you feel aligned with them or at least willing to smile to their jokes, by
all means, sign up. However, the ones that aren't joiners should still
get access to the same spectrum at the same level. After all, "nobody owns
a frequency", even if you are trying to raise the bar to where it becomes a
game of the biggest wallet.
Right now the total traffic on 44net could probably
ride on a single
home broadband connection.
Until you require everyone to go through your bottleneck... then it no
longer is that. And like you mention, the goal is to make it completely
available onto the internet.
I run my personal /24 (non-44net) over a VPN 24x7
and have several
hosts, including D-STAR gateways running over it.
I got one of those setups as well personally not to mention what I do
professionally.
But what I'm suggesting is that we shouldn't turn 44net into a class system
of haves and have nots. The ones who have the ability to advertise their
subnets are the haves and the ones who are forced to go through a gateway
are the have nots. The network should just be how it is.... chaotic. The
only improvement I would recommend is GRE instead of IPIP. Beyond that,
leave it as it is.
People will want to interconnect or they won't. But it shouldn't be
contingent upon anyone but themselves.
8:06 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:07:32PM -0700, K7VE - John wrote:
Right now the total traffic on 44net could probably
ride on a single
home broadband connection.
The ham-related two-way traffic, perhaps. The probes and backscatter
amount to quite a bit more traffic than that.
- Brian
6:13 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Yes -- there is a lot of noise eating bandwidth :)
My point is about real amateur applications and yes it could be dozens
of megabytes in the aggregate.
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian(a)ucsd.edu> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:07:32PM -0700, K7VE - John wrote:
Right now the total traffic on 44net could
probably ride on a single
home broadband connection.
The ham-related two-way traffic, perhaps. The probes and backscatter
amount to quite a bit more traffic than that.
- Brian
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net 
7:35 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 25.4.2014 5:02, K7VE - John wrote:
44.x.x.x is part of the Internet's addressable
space. If we don't use
it in that way, we may as well turn it back and just use 10.x.x.x
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
10.x.x.x is reused all over the planet, whenever someone needs addresses
for private network. Conflicts are inevitable.
Pedja
YT9TP
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is
active.
http://www.avast.com
7:44 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 2014-04-24 23:35, YT9TP Pedja wrote:
...
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
This reminds me of a company I worked for many years ago, which chose
128.x.x.x as its internal IP address space.
Yes, there were certain external sites they could not visit.
Yes, they went out of business (in 2002).
3:47 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
The University of Iowa being one of them (128.255.0.0/16) :-). It's
where I work.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Dean Gibson AE7Q <ampr(a)ae7q.com> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On 2014-04-24 23:35, YT9TP Pedja wrote:
--
Neil Johnson
http://erudicon.com
...
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
This reminds me of a company I worked for many years ago, which chose
128.x.x.x as its internal IP address space.
Yes, there were certain external sites they could not visit.
Yes, they went out of business (in 2002).
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
4:07 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Why all this talk about BGP? Real men and women network engineers
should use IS-IS :-)
Seriously though, I agree with those who are on the side of making
44-net MORE accessible and beneficial to average Amateur Radio
Operators. Requiring CCNA/CCIE level networking knowledge is not the
way to go. The IP-IP/RIP44 tunnel system is complicated enough, but at
least it can be done with easily available hardware and Linux. I also
agree that most ISP's are not going to want to advertise chunks of
44-net without someone paying for it.
I would like to see a backup to the UCSD gateway, but understand that
would be complicated for a variety of reasons.
-Neil
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com> wrote:
The University of Iowa being one of them
(128.255.0.0/16) :-). It's
where I work.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Dean Gibson AE7Q <ampr(a)ae7q.com> wrote:
--
Neil Johnson
http://erudicon.com
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On 2014-04-24 23:35, YT9TP Pedja wrote:
--
Neil Johnson
http://erudicon.com
...
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
This reminds me of a company I worked for many years ago, which chose
128.x.x.x as its internal IP address space.
Yes, there were certain external sites they could not visit.
Yes, they went out of business (in 2002).
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net 
5:11 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
+1
I have just joined the list and received my new 44 ip again, about 17 years
I left my old one.
We can not define our network having to trust ISP to announce parts of the
44 network for free.
I think that most we could do may be asking universities and so to route
those kind of 44 address blocks, maybe per country (or bigger blocks if
possible)... and then try to route the traffic tunneling (GRE probed to be
a good solution some years ago with the open wireless free network
projects) or via radio if the distance allow us to do it.
Of course, asking one individual to arrange with his DSL provider one /32
or a /24 announced ... is not realistic. At least in Spain, EA.
Jaime, EA4TV
El 25/04/2014 17:09, "Neil Johnson" <neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com> escribió:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
Why all this talk about BGP? Real men and women network engineers
should use IS-IS :-)
Seriously though, I agree with those who are on the side of making
44-net MORE accessible and beneficial to average Amateur Radio
Operators. Requiring CCNA/CCIE level networking knowledge is not the
way to go. The IP-IP/RIP44 tunnel system is complicated enough, but at
least it can be done with easily available hardware and Linux. I also
agree that most ISP's are not going to want to advertise chunks of
44-net without someone paying for it.
I would like to see a backup to the UCSD gateway, but understand that
would be complicated for a variety of reasons.
-Neil
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Neil Johnson <neil.johnson(a)erudicon.com>
wrote:
The University of Iowa being one of them
(128.255.0.0/16) :-). It's
where I work.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Dean Gibson AE7Q <ampr(a)ae7q.com> wrote:
--
Neil Johnson
http://erudicon.com
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On 2014-04-24 23:35, YT9TP Pedja wrote:
--
Neil Johnson
http://erudicon.com
...
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
This reminds me of a company I worked for many years ago, which chose
128.x.x.x as its internal IP address space.
Yes, there were certain external sites they could not visit.
Yes, they went out of business (in 2002).
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net 
5:39 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
I don't agree to the GRE approach for a serie of reasons:
1. It is the only widely PtP protocol that allows point to multipoint using
a single connection (at least on linux hosts).
Using a tunnel interface for each peer is a pain in the proverbial
behind.
2. It allows dynamic adding or removing of tunnels via simple route
commands.
On others one needs to manage and create tunnels for each endpoint.
3. Usually IPIP is not blocked by ISPs.
Some ISP (e.g. Vodafone) charge extra for VPN connections, which include
PPtP and L2TP but not IPIP.
4. IPIP carries traffic only if there is real traffic available.
No keep alive and other connection maintainance traffic. Like dial on
demand.
Disadvantages in my opinion:
1. No native support on Windows or Mac (PPtP and L2TP is supported).
2. Not supported in P2MP on routers (And this is the biggest disadvantage).
3. No stateful connections
4. No encryption (not very relevant IMHO, since the interest for
interception/spoofing is minimal - there is no money to make here)
73s de Marius, YO2LOJ
7:20 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
I don't agree to the GRE approach for a serie of
reasons:
Using a tunnel interface for each peer is a pain
in the proverbial
behind.
Yes but... If we group subnets, we can reduce the number of peers and
group
subnets though tunnels.
Then running ospf inside the subnets and bgp between big 44 islands. :-)
7:45 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
For our uses 10/8 could be managed the same way 44/8 is with no duplication
in our network. Simply replace 44 with 10. The only difference being
global routability and no requirement for NAT to connect to the larger
internet. Either we are connected and routed
to the larger internet or we are not. Carrying this to it's extreme - The
FCC allows me to dial the local autopatch and order pizza on my way home,
would it be any different if I did this from an amprnet node via the
pizzahut website?
Eric
AF6EP
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 11:35 PM, YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On 25.4.2014 5:02, K7VE - John wrote:
44.x.x.x is part of the Internet's
addressable space. If we don't use
it in that way, we may as well turn it back and just use 10.x.x.x
Actually there is a big difference. Within 44.x.x.x you have safe IP
addressing. It is impossible to have address conflicts with any other
network if you interconnect.
10.x.x.x is reused all over the planet, whenever someone needs addresses
for private network. Conflicts are inevitable.
Pedja
YT9TP
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http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
8:03 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 25.4.2014 8:45, Eric Fort wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
For our uses 10/8 could be managed the same way 44/8 is with no duplication
in our network. Simply replace 44 with 10. The only difference being
global routability and no requirement for NAT to connect to the larger
internet. Either we are connected and routed
to the larger internet or we are not.
It's not that simple. It might work if amateurs are only one to use it,
but they are not.
I have 10.* in my home.
I have 10.* in my company, actually 10.* in each company's office.
I have 10.* in our city wireless community.
I have 10.* in our national wireless network that connects all local
wireless communities.
I have 10.* in most private lans of my clients that I connect to via VPN.
It is really hard to avoid conflicts there.
44/8 is blessing.
---
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8:06 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:03 AM, YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
I have 10.* in my home.
I have 10.* in my company, actually 10.* in each company's office.
I have 10.* in our city wireless community.
I have 10.* in our national wireless network that connects all local
wireless communities.
I have 10.* in most private lans of my clients that I connect to via VPN.
It is really hard to avoid conflicts there.
44/8 is blessing.
Amen to that.
8:37 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
It's not just hard to avoid conflicts -- It's impossible to avoid conflicts.
So, can we finally dispense with the 10.x discussion? I think we've had to
endure that silliness long enough.
Michael
N6MEF
-----Original Message-----
From: 44net-bounces+n6mef=mefox.org(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
[mailto:44net-bounces+n6mef=mefox.org@hamradio.ucsd.edu] On Behalf Of Don
Fanning
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 12:07 AM
To: AMPRNet working group
Subject: Re: [44net] What is 44net?
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:03 AM, YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
I have 10.* in my home.
I have 10.* in my company, actually 10.* in each company's office.
I have 10.* in our city wireless community.
I have 10.* in our national wireless network that connects all local
wireless communities.
I have 10.* in most private lans of my clients that I connect to via VPN.
It is really hard to avoid conflicts there.
44/8 is blessing.
Amen to that.
6:15 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
I was using 10.x.x.x for illustration. The point being non-routable
vs routable address space.
I have never understood people who use 10.x.x.x/8 in a home network or
in a rack at a data center. There is a class B space 172.16.x.x if
you have more than 256 hosts, and there are 256 class C networks...
but that's just me.
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:06 AM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:03 AM, YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have 10.* in my home.
>>
>> I have 10.* in my company, actually 10.* in each company's office.
>>
>> I have 10.* in our city wireless community.
>>
>> I have 10.* in our national wireless network that connects all local
>> wireless communities.
>>
>> I have 10.* in most private lans of my clients that I connect to via VPN.
>>
>> It is really hard to avoid conflicts there.
>>
>> 44/8 is blessing.
>>
>>
> Amen to that.
>
6:26 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Let me just make this clear as I can. Using BGP to bring islands of net-44
into the Internet --
Does not mean end users need BGP
Does not mean end users need BGP
Does not mean end users need BGP
Does not mean end users need BGP
Does not mean end users need BGP
Does not mean end users need BGP
A few, maybe as little as 10, border nodes might run BGP and *provide
VPN/Tunnel services to everyone else* and not everyone needs to run the
same VPN/Tunnel protocol. Routing takes care of getting from point A to
point B. The idea is to have a fully connected address space using the
Internet/BGP to interconnect.
There can be multi-homing and tiers to minimize single points of failure.
How many of you can say your 'home' ampr-lan doesn't have a single point
of failure?
Encap/IPIP and RIP tables could theoretically have 16 million entries for
Net-44, why not use aggregation and a tiered network instead?
As I see it, the end user would use a router (a cheap Mikrotik or RasPi)
with one or more upstream VPN connections to a border node or sub-tier
router and would route all non-local 44net traffic over that
connection/those connections. All the user needs is a VPN/Tunnel
configuration and credentials provided by the border node/tier router
operator. So much simpler.
Think big net, not personal net.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
7:29 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 25.04.14. 19:26, K7VE - John wrote:
Encap/IPIP and RIP tables could theoretically have 16
million entries for
Net-44, why not use aggregation and a tiered network instead?
With this configuration where everyone has IPIP connection to everyone,
each network pays itćs own internet traffic.
If aggregation is introduced than traffic will go through aggregate
routes thus spending someone else's internet traffic.
I am not much knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible to assign whole
44/8 to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using
that one ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP
networks.
Pedja
YT9TP
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7:31 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:29 AM, YT9TP - Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
I am not much knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible to assign whole 44/8
to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using that
one ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP networks.
Pedja
YT9TP
Yes.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
8:09 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Traffic between IP-IP mesh nodes will keep flowing even if the UCSD
gateway disappears, the mesh just won't be able to reach/or be
reachable from the Internet until the gateway is rebuilt.
It is my understanding that the UCSD gateway also blocks traffic
coming into the IP-IP mesh unless the destination address has an entry
in the ampr.org or reverse 44-net DNS.
I would like to see a backup to the UCSD gateway, but finding someone
to swallow a /8 of traffic for free is, again, a problem.
-Neil
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:31 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:29 AM, YT9TP - Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
>
>> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
>>
>> I am not much knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible to assign whole 44/8
>> to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using that
>> one ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP networks.
>>
>> Pedja
>> YT9TP
>>
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> ------------------------------
> John D. Hays
> K7VE
> PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
> <http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
> <http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
>
8:11 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 25.4.2014 20:31, K7VE - John wrote:
Does that mean we can use single ASN and advertize all routes using that
one, and subnets do not even need to use BGP, just simple default
gateway through their internet links?
Pedja
YT9TP
---
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I am not much
knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible to assign whole 44/8
to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using that
one ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP networks.
Yes.
9:48 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMI9YSM0mzY (Start at minute 9)
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 12:11 PM, YT9TP Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On 25.4.2014 20:31, K7VE - John wrote:
Does that mean we can use single ASN and advertize all routes using that
one, and subnets do not even need to use BGP, just simple default gateway
through their internet links?
Pedja
YT9TP
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http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
I am not
much knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible to assign whole
44/8
to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using that
one ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP networks.
Yes. 
7:37 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 8:29 PM, YT9TP - Pedja <yt9tp(a)uzice.net> wrote:
I am not much knowledgeable about BGP. Is it possible
to assign whole 44/8
to one ASN and then advertize subnets with their own gateways using that one
ASN? I mean, like ASN is assigned with number of smaller IP networks.
This is already happening:
44/8 gets announced by UCSD
then there are a few smaller networks that get announced.
Like 44.144/16 in Belgium, 44.140/16 in Sweden, a 44.x /16 in italy,
and a few /24's of individual hams here and there who probably have
BGP at their work.
Routing will always prefer the smaller subnet, meaning that traffic
for 44.144 will be send to the BGP gateway in belgium while the USCD
gateway also covers this network with 44/8
If someone starts announcing eg 44.144.124.0/24 on another BGP
gateway, the traffic will go to that gateway even though there is also
a 44.144/16 gateway and a 44/8 gateway.
73s
Robbie
ON4SAX
7:36 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
A few, maybe as little as 10, border nodes might run BGP and *provide
VPN/Tunnel services to everyone else* and not everyone needs to run the
same VPN/Tunnel protocol. Routing takes care of getting from point A to
point B.
As others have already mentioned, some ISP's charge extra for VPN traffic.
And again, you create bottlenecks placing all your eggs into one basket.
This is getting circular.
The idea is to have a fully connected address space
using the
Internet/BGP to interconnect.
Why does every IP need to be internet accessible directly?
Lemme tell you a story: Back in the early days of the 1990's, a Colonel
heard about this "Internet" thing and commanded that all of their military
machines be placed upon said Internet even though their base had their own
network space and communicated to other bases via tunnels and p-t-p links.
Back then firewalls were few and far between back then and many machines
weren't audited. Didn't matter to said Colonel and thus all the machines
were placed onto the Internet. It didn't take long before hackers were
able to probe the network and penetrate some machines that weren't meant
for public access. Once it was discovered that hackers got into his
network, an audit report came out that was as thick as the Manhattan phone
book of all the flaws in their network.
Let's fast forward this to today: We have network radio hardware that
cannot be tightly secured (node and the like), a constant and persistent
threat of software vulnerabilities and hacking attempts trying to get more
and more machines onto the internet to act as part of botnets or phishing
schemes - not to mention regulation and financial burdens. And you want to
put every machine on the Internet? It's not that simple.
There can be multi-homing and tiers to minimize single
points of failure.
How many of you can say your 'home' ampr-lan doesn't have a single point
of failure?
I can, but I've already said I'm a special case. However I don't have
any
machine directly connected to the internet that is behoven to a single
network gateway or provider.
What you're asking is for people around the world to connect to your group
of routers (which will likely be US based - increasing latency for those
outside of north america) just so that they can talk to one another or
receive public traffic if they're not able to afford the $1000 or more for
AS registration + RIR membership + ISP announcement costs + maintenance
costs. Again, I think you are proposing a big mistake and a class system.
Encap/IPIP and RIP tables could theoretically have 16
million entries for
Net-44, why not use aggregation and a tiered network instead?
Because it causes bottlenecks and SPOF's. Unless you can contractually
provide me a TOS with 5 9's of reliability under heavy penalties, people
are better off being responsible for their own traffic. If you are willing
to offer that, then I'll be glad to sign up.
As I see it, the end user would use a router (a cheap
Mikrotik or RasPi)
with one or more upstream VPN connections to a border node or sub-tier
router and would route all non-local 44net traffic over that
connection/those connections. All the user needs is a VPN/Tunnel
configuration and credentials provided by the border node/tier router
operator. So much simpler.
Multiple VPN's not connecting to the same gateway causing routing issues.
It's one thing to bond to a single gateway endpoint. But routing between
two different gateway devices announcing your subnet would cause havoc and
alot of inter-router latency as packets get slung between both gateways.
Think big net, not personal net.
Think networks (plural) and not singular net.
9:14 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:36 AM, Don Fanning <don(a)00100100.net> wrote:
It doesn't, but that should be a choice left to the endpoints.
As already stated there are such routers already in place in Sweden,
Belgium, Germany, US, Canada, and other locations. The people that
run them have arrangements to do so, and the "masses" don't have to
worry about that.
If you want a TOS of 5 9's you aren't talking amateur radio. Don't
overlay business/government network requirements to what is
essentially an experimenter's network, that may have some need for
reliable services which can be addressed in data centers and by
replication and other methods.
Data center resources are getting uber-cheap -- check out
http://www.cloudatcost.com
________________________________
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
So how do you do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel (another type of
VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables get much
smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
tunnel to a tier or border router.
I'm not talking about one basket, but even if I was, it probably would
have greater overall reliability than the 386 JNOS machine with
hundreds of IPIP rules.
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
A few, maybe as little as 10, border nodes might run BGP and *provide
VPN/Tunnel services to everyone else* and not everyone needs to run the
same VPN/Tunnel protocol. Routing takes care of getting from point A to
point B.
As others have already mentioned, some ISP's charge extra for VPN traffic.
And again, you create bottlenecks placing all your eggs into one basket.
This is getting circular.
The idea is to have a fully connected address
space using the
Internet/BGP to interconnect.
Why does every IP need to be internet accessible directly?
There can be
multi-homing and tiers to minimize single points of failure.
How many of you can say your 'home' ampr-lan doesn't have a single point
of failure?
I can, but I've already said I'm a special case. However I don't have
any
machine directly connected to the internet that is behoven to a single
network gateway or provider.
What you're asking is for people around the world to connect to your group
of routers (which will likely be US based - increasing latency for those
outside of north america) just so that they can talk to one another or
receive public traffic if they're not able to afford the $1000 or more for
AS registration + RIR membership + ISP announcement costs + maintenance
costs. Again, I think you are proposing a big mistake and a class system.
Encap/IPIP and RIP tables could theoretically
have 16 million entries for
Net-44, why not use aggregation and a tiered network instead?
Because it causes bottlenecks and SPOF's. Unless you can contractually
provide me a TOS with 5 9's of reliability under heavy penalties, people
are better off being responsible for their own traffic. If you are willing
to offer that, then I'll be glad to sign up.
9:55 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 1:14 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
traffic.
IPIP is encapsulation - VPN implies privacy. Big difference.
As already stated there are such routers already in place in Sweden,
Belgium, Germany, US, Canada, and other locations. The people that
run them have arrangements to do so, and the "masses" don't have to
worry about that.
Have you asked them if they're willing to take on the extra traffic or are
willing to let you make routing changes to their routers?
What if your Ukranian and you're being told that you're forced to use a
gateway run by Russians for whom you may have issues with? What if you're
in China and you're unable to VPN out due to country firewalls? Or Turkey?
Or Saudi Arabia? At least IPIP doesn't immediately say "tunneled private
traffic". And my DoS example still stands because now you have individual
groups advertising routes for the entire /8 for which are not under a
singular control or a singular Point of Contact for mitigating the network.
Again, by keeping it simple for basic connectivity allows everyone to
participate at a common level instead of the network becoming a place where
you're either a rich system operator or poor end user.
willing
Until you ask a EMCOMM person. Then it's the only thing that matters.
> A few, maybe as little as 10, border nodes
might run BGP and *provide
> VPN/Tunnel services to everyone else* and not everyone needs to run the
> same VPN/Tunnel protocol. Routing takes care of getting from point A
to
point B.
As others have already mentioned, some ISP's charge extra for VPN And again, you create bottlenecks placing all
your eggs into one basket.
This is getting circular.
So how do you do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel (another type of
VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables
get much
smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
tunnel to a tier or border router.
Everything changes as now all my traffic to 44/8 end up going through your
gateway instead of individual p-t-p links.
I'm not talking about one basket, but even if I
was, it probably would
have greater overall reliability than the 386 JNOS machine with
hundreds of IPIP rules.
All you are doing is taking the "hundreds" of rules and bringing them up
one level. The complexity still exists, except that now if you fat finger
a change, it impacts everyone until enough people complain to you about
your mistake. Until then, everyone is affected instead of individual nodes.
What you're asking is for people around the world to connect to your
group
of routers (which will likely be US based -
increasing latency for those
outside of north america) just so that they can talk to one another or
receive public traffic if they're not able to afford the $1000 or more
for
AS registration + RIR membership + ISP
announcement costs + maintenance
costs. Again, I think you are proposing a big mistake and a class
system.
> Encap/IPIP and RIP tables could theoretically have 16 million entries
for
Net-44,
why not use aggregation and a tiered network instead?
Because it causes bottlenecks and SPOF's. Unless you can contractually
provide me a TOS with 5 9's of reliability under heavy penalties, people
are better off being responsible for their own traffic. If you are to offer that, then I'll be glad to sign up.
If you want a TOS of 5 9's you aren't talking amateur radio. Don't
overlay business/government network requirements to what is
essentially an experimenter's network,
Overgeneralization and inaccurate but ok.
that may have some need for
reliable services which can be addressed in data centers and by
replication and other methods.
It's IP addressing and routing... not colocation. You keep trying to make
44net an ISP when it's not.
11:41 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
-----Original Message-----
So how do you do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel
(another type of
VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables get much
smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
tunnel to a tier or border router.
So you're creating multiple new single points of failure. With your plan, I
can get to a few other local gateways. Anything else has to go through this
new single point of failure locally, plus, presumably, and another single
point of failure near my destination. So most worldwide connectivity would
now have to traverse two single points of failure that currently don't
exist. This is good because ...?
Michael
N6MEF
26 Apr
26 Apr
12:01 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Most failures are localized and temporary.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Michael E Fox - N6MEF <n6mef(a)mefox.org>wrote;wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
So how do you do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel
(another type of
VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables get much
smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
tunnel to a tier or border router.
So you're creating multiple new single points of failure. With your plan,
I
can get to a few other local gateways. Anything else has to go through
this
new single point of failure locally, plus, presumably, and another single
point of failure near my destination. So most worldwide connectivity would
now have to traverse two single points of failure that currently don't
exist. This is good because ...?
Michael
N6MEF
_________________________________________
44Net mailing list
44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
12:08 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
In the IPIP tunnels, on both ends, you have a single point of failure since
you cannot multihome (as discussed 25 MAR "Can't add redundant AMPR gateway
to portal").
I know that the network I'm building as well as a few other BGP announced
networks are multihomed -- no single point of failure to the internet. In
fact, we have planned for one of the BGP announcements and peering to take
place at one of our RF point of presences.
Another advantage is latency... having traffic travel from Memphis to San
Diego and back just to get from my cellphone to a 44net-connected server in
the same room is disappointing.
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:01 PM, K7VE - John <k7ve(a)k7ve.org> wrote:
> (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> _______________________________________________
> Most failures are localized and temporary.
>
>
> ------------------------------
> John D. Hays
> K7VE
> PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
> <http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
> <http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Michael E Fox - N6MEF <n6mef(a)mefox.org
> >wrote:
>
> > (Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > >So how do you do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel (another type of
> > >VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables get much
> > >smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
> > >tunnel to a tier or border router.
> >
> > So you're creating multiple new single points of failure. With your
> plan,
> > I
> > can get to a few other local gateways. Anything else has to go through
> > this
> > new single point of failure locally, plus, presumably, and another single
> > point of failure near my destination. So most worldwide connectivity
> would
> > now have to traverse two single points of failure that currently don't
> > exist. This is good because ...?
> >
> > Michael
> > N6MEF
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________
> > 44Net mailing list
> > 44Net(a)hamradio.ucsd.edu
> > http://hamradio.ucsd.edu/mailman/listinfo/44net
> >
>
12:38 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
I have no problem with IPIP tunnels. I just don't think it is the best
architecture to have every node maintaining IPIP routes to every other
node, a tiered network and one or two neighbors for each node is easier to
setup and maintain. My goal is to get more people using 44net.
BTW, if anyone has in their EMComm plan that 44net will give them
connectivity, "When all else fails..." it is a delusion. Even if you have
IPIP tunnels, you have to have Internet connectivity to get to the other
end of the tunnel. If you have IPIP connectivity, you have Internet
connectivity and can pass the traffic over standard channels.
In a real Emcomm (less than 1% of network utilization), you just have to
get traffic to a relay point. Your RF network may or may not get you
there, but your IPIP tunnel doesn't give you any advantage over the ISP you
are connected to.
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Ryan Elliott Turner <ryan.e.t(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
In the IPIP tunnels, on both ends, you have a single point of failure since
you cannot multihome (as discussed 25 MAR "Can't add redundant AMPR gateway
to portal").
I know that the network I'm building as well as a few other BGP announced
networks are multihomed -- no single point of failure to the internet. In
fact, we have planned for one of the BGP announcements and peering to take
place at one of our RF point of presences.
Another advantage is latency... having traffic travel from Memphis to San
Diego and back just to get from my cellphone to a 44net-connected server in
the same room is disappointing.
1:16 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
_______________________________________________
In the IPIP tunnels, on both ends, you have a single point of failure since
you cannot multihome (as discussed 25 MAR "Can't add redundant AMPR gateway
to portal").
N6MEF: Apples and oranges. For my own end-points, I don't have to rely on
anyone else if they need attention. The plan that's being discussed would
put two additional points of failure between my end points and most other
end points and the keeper of those points of failure has no contractual
obligation to do anything. If he's away for the summer on vacation or sick
or at the movies or out to dinner or ... oh, well.
N6MEF: As for redundant end points, I see nothing in the proposal that
fixes that. The proposal merely take one full mesh and breaks it into
multiple full meshes, each with the same problem (non-redundant end-points)
as before, with the added bonus of two new single points of failure in
between.
I know that the network I'm building as well as a few other BGP announced
networks are multihomed -- no single point of failure to the internet. In
fact, we have planned for one of the BGP announcements and peering to take
place at one of our RF point of presences.
N6MEF: Perhaps that's true of the one you're building. I don't see that
listed as a requirement in general. And will you have backup sysops? And
monitoring? And how will people report problems to you? What happens when
you go on vacation or are sick or asleep or on a business trip or ...
Today, by the good graces of UCSD, we have a gateway that Brian supports
well, when he can. There have been outages, but because of the full-mesh
design, they have had ZERO impact on tunnel traffic. So if the volunteer
can't work on it right away, only Internet traffic is impacted. And we all
have the option to send Internet traffic (NATed) out our own home router.
This plan would create intermediaries such that an outage WOULD impact
tunnel traffic and we're at the mercy of whoever pushes his way into being
that middle man. No thank you.
Another advantage is latency... having traffic travel from Memphis to San
Diego and back just to get from my cellphone to a 44net-connected server in
the same room is disappointing.
N6MEF: Yes, THAT is a problem worth solving (in addition to allowing
alternate endpoint gateways). But we need a solution that doesn't create
additional problems. Let's take a step forward, not two steps backward.
There is an ENOURMOUS difference between a multi-homed AS, with multiple BGP
external gateways (as large corporations would have with multiple sites
interconnected by VPN ) and making multiple AS's by inserting BGP gateways
in the middle of "internal" (44-to-44) traffic.
Michael
N6MEF
2:16 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Michael E Fox - N6MEF <n6mef(a)mefox.org>wrote;wrote:
This plan would create intermediaries such that an outage WOULD impact
tunnel traffic and we're at the mercy of whoever pushes his way into being
that middle man. No thank you.
You are making a big leap here. Nobody is going to tell you who you are
going to have for neighbors or up stream. Find someone you trust, that has
the contingency plan you feel comfortable with and connect to them. They
don't even have to be in your neighborhood.
Any plan will have the potential for failures. You might control your IPIP
tunnel but what if your ISP goes away? Is the device that is running your
tunnel on redundant power? Does it have redundant networking with failover
and portability of your encapsulating IP address? Does very end point you
want to talk to have those capabilities?
At my day job, every dollar that comes into our company arrives on an
RJ-45, and it falls into my area of responsibility to make sure it stays up
and we have failover and contingency plans. I understand these things. (I
use geographically dispersed data centers, multiple carriers, redundant
servers, etc. but there is still the potential to go down, at least
temporarily, even even with service level agreements.)
I also understand that ham radio is a hobby..
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
7:06 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
This plan would create intermediaries such that an
outage WOULD impact
tunnel traffic and we're at the mercy of whoever pushes his way into being
that middle man. No thank you.
You are making a big leap here. Nobody is going to tell you who you are
going to have for neighbors or up stream. Find someone you trust, that has
the contingency plan you feel comfortable with and connect to them. They
don't even have to be in your neighborhood.
N6MEF: Then I choose nothing. Currently, when my packets leave my gateway,
they travel through commercial carrier networks to reach the destination
gateway. Those carriers have service level agreements, redundancy,
diversity, 24x7 NOCs, 24x7 technicians, caches of spare equipment, help
desks, etc. Your proposal would cause my traffic to ride some of those same
carrier networks but then exit to some amateur near me who has none of those
capabilities, then back onto the commercial networks, then back off to some
other amateur near my destination, then back onto the commercial carrier to
the destination. Do you really not see how silly that is? When a problem
happens, either one or both of those amateurs may be at work, asleep, away
on vacation, out to dinner, away on a business trip, or just not interesting
in working on it at the time because he's watching the Star Trek marathon
that weekend. Then there's always, "sorry guys, I'm being transferred for
work, so I'm going to have to shut down my system." That's a huge step
backward in reliability. I mean, seriously, why would anyone choose to add
amateur operations into the middle of the existing all
commercial/professional forwarding path that our full mesh of tunnels
currently traverses?
N6MEF: One of the nice things about AMPRnet over the old BBS network is we
don't need to rely on each amateur in the path keeping their system running
and configured properly. Anyone with experience in both will tell you there
is simply no comparison. The old-style reliance on amateurs in the
forwarding path is far, far less reliable. You would have us go backwards
to that approach.
Any plan will have the potential for failures. You might control your IPIP
tunnel but what if your ISP goes away? Is the device that is running your
tunnel on redundant power? Does it have redundant networking with failover
and portability of your encapsulating IP address? Does very end point you
want to talk to have those capabilities?
N6MEF: Strawman arguments, all. If my ISP goes away, so would my
connection to any local BGP hub in your plan. Or, if the remote endpoint
dies, so does connectivity to that location, both in the existing mesh and
in your plan. So let's not play games. Pointing out existing failure modes
does nothing to mask the fact that your proposal has the same failure modes,
plus it would add a pile of new ones.
N6MEF: Bottom line, you plan introduces new/additional failure modes which
have been pointed out by several people on this list and you've done nothing
but dismiss them. I doubt anyone will want their traffic to have to
traverse the facilities managed by someone with such a lack of appreciation
for the problems that can occur and so little regard for their desire/need
for stability and reliability.
At my day job, every dollar that comes into our company arrives on an
RJ-45, and it falls into my area of responsibility to make sure it stays up
and we have failover and contingency plans. I understand these things. (I
use geographically dispersed data centers, multiple carriers, redundant
servers, etc. but there is still the potential to go down, at least
temporarily, even even with service level agreements.)
N6MEF: Got it. As I suspected, not a commercial/carrier network
architect/engineer. Carrier network operations is an entirely different set
of issues. Still, I'll bet your company doesn't rely on an amateur, with no
service level agreement, no NOC, no backup staff, no 24x7 operations to
manage connectivity between your data centers.
I also understand that ham radio is a hobby..
N6MEF: Yes, amateur RADIO is a hobby. So knock yourself out experimenting
with radio. But the last thing any of us needs is to have some amateur
insert himself into the commercial networking path between gateways.
Michael
N6MEF
8:05 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
Eliminating single points of failure has a simple solution.
Keep your IPIP mesh with a higher route metric and add P2P links via another
provider and gateway with lower route metrics, managed by a routing
protocol.
e.g. I have the classic mesh up via a lower speed provider, and a L2TP
tunnel to the german hamnet via a high speed interface, announcing my
presence via BGP on that VPN and getting their routes also via BGP.
If the L2TP tunnel fails, the BGP routes will disappear and the old mesh
network will kick in providing the needed redundancy (another provider,
another gateway).
BGP is not necessary needed, any routing protocol will do, e.g. OSPF or RIP.
Just as simple as that. No need to drop the mesh, just add VPNs to it.
And from the point of view of your partner subnet, you are also multihomed.
12:07 a.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 04/25/2014 03:41 PM, Michael E Fox - N6MEF wrote:
I'd like to keep the IPIP mesh (perhaps enhanced with other protocols
laid on top of each IPIP), since it is the fastest way of getting from
network A to network B, where both are non-Internet-BGP'd 44nets.
What I would like to see in addition though are VPN dial-ins (perhaps
IPIP based, perhaps not) that provide the Internet transit, not
inter-44net transit. This is so 44net users aren't having to spend lots
of money arranging Internet BGP peers. A heirarchy of such gateways can
be established. For example, Western Washington can run a gateway that
serves its populace and announces 44.24/16. This is less-specific than
user announcements but more-specific than the UCSD announcement. So it
would simultaneously not deprive end-users of Internet BGP, and jump in
front of UCSD needing to handle the traffic. Should UCSD fail, the
Western Washington gateway stays up and any 44net<->Internet traffic for
Western Washington users is unaffected by the UCSD failure. Should the
Western Washington gateway fail, UCSD can take over (via its 44/8) and
relay packets to users as it gets them. Users would need to hold
connections with both gateways.
I think this is how my proposal and John's proposals differ. I'd like
to keep the IPIP mesh, not replace it with VPN concentrators. I'd just
like to augment the UCSD single point of Internet transit with
additional regional Internet transit points.
Lastly, it's also possible for a regional gateway like the Western
Washington one, to also announce 44/8 and provide Internet transit for
all 44nets. It would then compete (based on a least-hop basis, and some
other BGP attributes) with other such gateways (eg: UCSD) for the duty
of delivering Internet traffic. This fixes the single point of failure
right now @ UCSD. There are some open design questions in the
implementation of these 44/8 gateways, but those details can be worked out.
--Bart
So how do you
do it now? You use an IPIP tunnel (another type of
VPN), nothing changes for the end user except, his tables get much
smaller, she routes local 44.x.x.x traffic locally and uses an IPIP
tunnel to a tier or border router.
So you're creating multiple new single
points of failure. With your plan, I
can get to a few other local gateways. Anything else has to go through this
new single point of failure locally, plus, presumably, and another single
point of failure near my destination. So most worldwide connectivity would
now have to traverse two single points of failure that currently don't
exist. This is good because ...?
25 Apr
25 Apr
7:23 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 25.04.14. 19:15, K7VE - John wrote:
I have never understood people who use 10.x.x.x/8 in a
home network or
in a rack at a data center. There is a class B space 172.16.x.x if
you have more than 256 hosts, and there are 256 class C networks...
but that's just me.
I am pretty sure no one uses whole 10/8 for home network but some subnet.
By default, home networking devices use 192.168.*.* so it is just an
experience not to use that addresses to avoid conflicts, similarly as
avoiding 10.10.*.* is wise too as that is also very common.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is
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7:23 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On 2014-04-25 10:15, K7VE - John wrote:
(Please trim inclusions from previous messages)
_______________________________________________
I was using 10.x.x.x for illustration. The point being non-routable vs routable address
space.
I have never understood people who use 10.x.x.x/8 in a home network or in a rack at a
data center. There is a class B space 172.16.x.x if you have more than 256 hosts, and
there are 256 class C networks... but that's just me.
Well, what happens is that people get burned with conflicts using
192.168.0.x/24 or 192.168.1.x/24, when they add a new device to their
network, and they seek to escape to 10.x.x.x/8, planning to avoid such
conflicts, and run straight into VPN issues with everyone else that
thinks that way.
It doesn't take much effort or equipment to run a DMZ in a separate
private-IP space from your LAN, and then if you have a VPN IP-address
conflict in your DMZ, you can change IP addresses (or even network
address space) there without affecting your LAN.
Also, just because the 192.168.x.x block is 256 /24 networks, doesn't
mean that you have to use it that way (ditto for 172.1x.x.x needing to
be 16 /16 networks). I run a DMZ using 192.168.0.x/18, but only one
host is in 192.168.0.x/24 (to deal with devices new to the network).
Yes, I know this is all old-hat to most of us, but since the subject
came up ...
ps: If anyone ever intends to network with, to, or through D-Star
DD-mode nodes, note that those are hard-allocated to the 10.x.x.x/8 block.
7:30 p.m.
New subject: What is 44net?
On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Dean Gibson AE7Q <ampr(a)ae7q.com> wrote:
ps: If anyone ever intends to network with, to, or through D-Star DD-mode
nodes, note that those are hard-allocated to the 10.x.x.x/8 block.
That's just an Icom (V1/G2) implementation. ircDDBGateway doesn't require
that and those gateways could easily move to 44.x.x.x
------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
3875
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49 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Bart Kus -
Bill Vodall -
Brian Kantor -
Bryan Fields -
Dean Gibson AE7Q -
Don Fanning -
Eric Fort -
Geoff Joy -
Jaime Robles -
K7VE - John -
Marius Petrescu -
Michael E Fox - N6MEF -
Neil Johnson -
Robbie De Lise -
Ryan Elliott Turner -
YT9TP - Pedja -
YT9TP Pedja