Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. - Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies - Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users - Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. - Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
Those are all great questions. I was thinking of adding some of my 44net IPs to my web server so I could offer free web hosting for HAMS. All non-HAM sites would be on standard public IPs.
I do have my DMR hotspots running on my 44net addresses since it is Amateur Radio communications. I have the updated routed to go through my main Internet connection, so the clarification on that would help.
73, Jeff Parrish KB9GXK
Get Outlook for Androidhttps://aka.ms/AAb9ysg ________________________________ From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2023 9:02:02 PM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Servicehttps://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly Echolink conferences and proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
/"//Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's /only /reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers /outside/ of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the VA4WAN network for about 10 years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at 100mbit to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet for nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+ away along with DMR audio mixed in. https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly Echolink conferences and proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
-- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
What camera are you running the livestream through? Is it an IP Camera ?
I was toying with this idea for a while ever since I saw that ARNSW has (had) a pole mounted camera facing the city... https://arnsw.org.au/live2wi
It looks to be down now, but I have been experimenting at home (presets not working right now) using a Panasonic AW-HE38 and restreamer. https://vk2eva.com/webcam/ This is definitely something I want to use N44 for
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 1:57 PM William Franzin via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the VA4WAN network for about 10 years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at 100mbit to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet for nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+ away along with DMR audio mixed in. https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly Echolink conferences and proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
-- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
We mostly have Hikvision IP cameras in use now. There's around 30 tower sites and a box of cameras to install. Cameras are setup with private IPs accessible on the RF Network but not the internet.
At key sites there's a remote Windows PC for remote admin and also being used with OBS for streaming to YT/FB. That presence on the internet has helped get people asking about ham radio too.
There's lots of public interest in weather cameras alone and just the jpeg URL at one site gets about 3M hits a year. A tornado event occured this summer and it was livestramed as well.
When it comes to asking for access at sites, local governments or other organizations see value in the IP cameras we operate as well as IP phones for emergency comms backup.
William VE4VR
On Wed, Sept 27, 2023, 12:30 a.m. Lewys Martin countparadox@gmail.com wrote:
What camera are you running the livestream through? Is it an IP Camera ?
I was toying with this idea for a while ever since I saw that ARNSW has (had) a pole mounted camera facing the city... https://arnsw.org.au/live2wi
It looks to be down now, but I have been experimenting at home (presets not working right now) using a Panasonic AW-HE38 and restreamer. https://vk2eva.com/webcam/ This is definitely something I want to use N44 for
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 1:57 PM William Franzin via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the VA4WAN network for about 10 years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at 100mbit to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet for nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+ away along with DMR audio mixed in. https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly Echolink conferences and proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
-- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
-- Regards,
Lewys Martin | VK2EVA https://lewys.eu/ https://vk2eva.com/
Hi Matthew,
On 27 Sep 2023, at 03:02, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
ARDC are in the process of clarifying this very questionby way of a formal policy as it has been a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation.
Currently it is myself who approves BGP requests, so I can answer your questions in the context of a request for BGP announced address space…
Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs.
Yes, no problem at all.
Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
If that was your only reason it would be a definite no, so strictly speaking it wouldn’t be allowed as it is not ham related, but I know folk do add on the occasional “other” service and as long as it is not doing anyone any harm…
Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
If these servers are providing ham related services, e.g. hosting ham websites etc, then of course servers need to update and from non-ham sources, so that would be fine. If the servers were hosting services unrelated to ham in any way then you should host those services on a commercial IP.
Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Perfectly ok.
This is a good prompt to ask for opinions on this subject - as I said at the start, ARDC are in the process of formalising a policy for acceptable use cases, so if anyone has any opinions on the subject, please make your thoughts known - it would be useful to have community input to help shape the policy.
73, Chris - G1FEF — ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net https://www.ardc.net/
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 12:07 AM Chris via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
If that was your only reason it would be a definite no, so strictly speaking it wouldn’t be allowed as it is not ham related, but I know folk do add on the occasional “other” service and as long as it is not doing anyone any harm…
I feel like this one is no different than hams rag-chewing about cars. Which seems totally reasonable.
But then, like most of these, what is and isn't going to be acceptable on the ham bands (in a particular country) and what is and isn't going to be acceptable to the holders of the 44-net address space may not entirely overlap.
My guess is that there will be plenty of things that you can use 44-net space for, but not on the ham bands in certain countries. But hopefully no cases where there's something permissible on the ham band that is prevented by the 44-net AUP.
Matthew Kaufman
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
_______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
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In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio regulations aren't to be mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two separate things.
The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries what is permitted and what is not by their regulators.
The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or advise about radio regulations can be done outside of this list.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
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Maybe an AUP that is clearly written is needed.
On 9/27/2023 10:37 PM, Steve L via 44net wrote:
In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio regulations aren't to be mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two separate things.
The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries what is permitted and what is not by their regulators.
The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or advise about radio regulations can be done outside of this list.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link. Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine. You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea. Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner. Cheers Peter VK6HAX On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote: Hi all, Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful. >> * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies > Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties. > Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions. Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues. Thanks Matthew On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote: Tom,____ No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs____ Dave____ __ __ *From:*Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service____ __ __ Hi Dave____ __ __ I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?____ __ __ Cheers____ Tom____ __ __ __ __ On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:____ Matthew,____ Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.____ Dave____ G4UGM____ ____ ____ ____ *From:*Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service____ ____ Hi all,____ The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states: /"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/ I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:____ * Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs.____ * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies____ * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's /only /reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users____ * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. ____ * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers /outside/ of 44net____ Any guidance would be appreciated. Matthew 2E0SIP____ _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>____ _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org> _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org> _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
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This is in progress as we speak, currently I believe it is with the lawyers, so I would expect it to go before the board for approval fairly soon.
73, Chris - G1FEF — ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net
On 28 Sep 2023, at 12:11, Charles Hargrove via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Maybe an AUP that is clearly written is needed.
On 9/27/2023 10:37 PM, Steve L via 44net wrote:
In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio regulations aren't to be mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two separate things. The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries what is permitted and what is not by their regulators. The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or advise about radio regulations can be done outside of this list. On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote: In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link. Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine. You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea. Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner. Cheers Peter VK6HAX On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote: Hi all, Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful. >> * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies > Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties. > Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions. Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues. Thanks Matthew On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote: Tom,____ No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs____ Dave____ __ __ *From:*Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service____ __ __ Hi Dave____ __ __ I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?____ __ __ Cheers____ Tom____ __ __ __ __ On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:____ Matthew,____ Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.____ Dave____ G4UGM____ ____ ____ ____ *From:*Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service____ ____ Hi all,____ The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states: /"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/ I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:____ * Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs.____ * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies____ * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's /only /reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users____ * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. ____ * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers /outside/ of 44net____ Any guidance would be appreciated. Matthew 2E0SIP____ _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org____ _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
-- Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.
44net Coordinator - Northeast USA
NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32
"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan
"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." - Tacitus
"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying (The work praises the man.)
"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
On 2023-09-27 17:22:47 (+0800), Peter Hannay via 44net wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
One would hope that amateur RF users understand that there is no expectation of privacy on amateur RF bands. Those users are expected to be licensed and understand the conditions of their licence.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner.
Please do report on how well this ends up working. I've been thinking of setting this up too.
With a lot of the public internet becoming end-to-end encrypted, I would expect to see transparent proxies struggle to decrypt everything. Additionally, some jurisdictions also require at least periodic transmission of the operator's callsign. Ideally, this would be done by the client (e.g. by adding an X-HAM-OPERATOR: header to HTTP traffic), but doing it in a proxy may be easier. Food for thought!
Philip VR2WTZ
Re:
some jurisdictions also require at least periodic transmission of the operator's callsign.
Ongoing debate about whether the wifi SSID fulfills this sufficiently for the FCC requirement...
Cliff K6CLS CM87
On September 28, 2023 7:11:31 PM PDT, Philip Paeps via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
On 2023-09-27 17:22:47 (+0800), Peter Hannay via 44net wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
One would hope that amateur RF users understand that there is no expectation of privacy on amateur RF bands. Those users are expected to be licensed and understand the conditions of their licence.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a completely above board manner.
Please do report on how well this ends up working. I've been thinking of setting this up too.
With a lot of the public internet becoming end-to-end encrypted, I would expect to see transparent proxies struggle to decrypt everything. Additionally, some jurisdictions also require at least periodic transmission of the operator's callsign. Ideally, this would be done by the client (e.g. by adding an X-HAM-OPERATOR: header to HTTP traffic), but doing it in a proxy may be easier. Food for thought!
Philip VR2WTZ
-- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
I would think if the SSID is public (not hidden) it is reasonable to say that the transmission has been identified for the access point, however that may not be true for the client. It is simple enough to create an ID program that fires off a UDP packet with identification information in the clear on a periodic basis.
On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 1:45 PM Cliff Sojourner via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Re:
some jurisdictions also require at least periodic transmission of the
operator's callsign.
Ongoing debate about whether the wifi SSID fulfills this sufficiently for the FCC requirement...
Cliff K6CLS CM87
--
John D. Hays Kingston, WA K7VE / WRJT-215
On 27 Sep 2023, at 10:11, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
In this case, as it is to provide an amateur radio club with a ham related service (assuming club members would use it generally for ham purposes of course) then I see no issue with that. The only caveat is that, as the named person on the LOA, you remain responsible for how the IPs are used, so you would want to protect yourself by ensuring there was a decent firewall in place and that club members adhere to agreed terms of use.
That being said, if this is *just* to bypass a draconian ISP and provide general internet access for your club, i.e. browsing the www etc, then it would be a terrible waste of IP address space as you could achieve the same result with a Vultr VM and tunnel from your club to the VM over a VPN link and NAT the VM’s single public IP. You don’t need 44net address space to do that.
73, Chris - G1FEF
Thanks Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
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Matthew,
Why should you be sorry. It’s a good question. Much information on the net is US based and these do allow third part traffic, but the UK rules have always been very specific that “Amateur Radio” is for “Amateurs” and not for commercial use. How could you ensure that providing general internet access was not used for commercial use. If you were allowed third party traffic you would also have problems with the clauses on “offensive language”.
My copy of the “Guidance Notes” says at 2.84:-
“This may mean that the licensee must implement monitoring or other checks in order to take reasonable steps to ensure compliance with the Licence or to remedy any breaches that emerge.”
Even to have a BBS you need an NOV which seems crazy as its all Amateur traffic…
https://ukrepeater.net/forms_central.html
.. see the BBS form…….
… perhaps I should have commented on the recent consultation that we should relax the rules on Packet radio, but I didn’t
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) 44net@marrold.co.uk Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 10:12 AM To: dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Cc: Tom M0LTE tom@m0lte.uk; 44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: Re: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM To: 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. * Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies * Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users * Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. * Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
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Hi Dave
I interpret this differently to you, and have responded off-list to your extended message.
Kind regards Tom
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023 at 09:54, dave.g4ugm@gmail.com wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM *To:* 44net@mailman.ampr.org *Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
*Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and nowhere in my license conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to modify this statement to something like "possesition of a amateur radio licence permits You to ....."*
*Mark G7LTT/NI2O*
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
In this case, as it is to provide an amateur radio club with a ham related service (assuming club members would use it generally for ham purposes of course) then I see no issue with that. The only caveat is that, as the named person on the LOA, you remain responsible for how the IPs are used, so you would want to protect yourself by ensuring there was a decent firewall in place and that club members adhere to agreed terms of use.
That being said, if this is *just* to bypass a draconian ISP and provide general internet access for your club, i.e. browsing the www etc, then it would be a terrible waste of IP address space as you could achieve the same result with a Vultr VM and tunnel from your club to the VM over a VPN link and NAT the VM’s single public IP. You don’t need 44net address space to do that.
Hi Chris,
Yes that all makes sense, thanks for clarifying everything.
Thanks Matthew 2E0SIP
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 6:18 PM Geoff Joy via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
The “license” being referred to in that section is the ARDC license to use the IP addresses assigned to the Ham for use under the TOS, not to the Amateur radio license assigned to him by his country.
Perhaps a better phrasing might be “…by ARDC within the limits allowed by the class of Ham license of the assignee and applicable regulations.”
This is a TOS that assumed applicable laws already prevail and the contract is between ARDC and the assignee and it doesn’t presume to describe the obligations of the assignee under his country’s laws and regulations.
Ultimately, it is not incumbent upon ARDC to provide advice or examples of acceptable use because it is the responsibility of the Ham license holder to know and inform himself of the regulations applicable to him under the terms he accepted when obtaining his amateur radio license.
-KE6QH-
On Sep 27, 2023, at 08:12, Mark Phillips via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
*Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and nowhere in my license conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to modify this statement to something like "possesition of a amateur radio licence permits You to ....."*
*Mark G7LTT/NI2O*
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net < 44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
“license” in this context means the license that ARDC grant you to borrow their IP addresses, in the case of BGP address space this is the LOA
Chris - G1FEF
On 27 Sep 2023, at 16:12, Mark Phillips via 44net 44net@mailman.ampr.org wrote:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and nowhere in my license conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to modify this statement to something like "possesition of a amateur radio licence permits You to ....."
Mark G7LTT/NI2O
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/ states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not: Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs. Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers. Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew 2E0SIP _______________________________________________ 44net mailing list -- 44net@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org
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Chris - G1FEF — ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net
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