27 Sep
2023
27 Sep
'23
3:02 a.m.
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for
discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net addresses
and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR
Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
27 Sep
27 Sep
3:34 a.m.
Those are all great questions. I was thinking of adding some of my 44net IPs to my web
server so I could offer free web hosting for HAMS. All non-HAM sites would be on standard
public IPs.
I do have my DMR hotspots running on my 44net addresses since it is Amateur Radio
communications. I have the updated routed to go through my main Internet connection, so
the clarification on that would help.
73,
Jeff Parrish
KB9GXK
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2023 9:02:02 PM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet,
including from non radio amateurs.
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF,
whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing
cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
* Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need
to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to
other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
4:37 a.m.
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly Echolink conferences and
proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from
ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward
involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service
<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
/"//Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for
the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or
other special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're
permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the
allocated amateur radio frequencies
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's /only /reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
* Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur
servers.
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers /outside/ of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com
4:56 a.m.
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the VA4WAN network for about 10
years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at 100mbit
to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet for
nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware
hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly
alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally
you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with
ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+
away along with DMR audio mixed in.
https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly
Echolink conferences and
proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from
ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward
involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
6:31 a.m.
What camera are you running the livestream through? Is it an IP Camera ?
I was toying with this idea for a while ever since I saw that ARNSW has
(had) a pole mounted camera facing the city...
https://arnsw.org.au/live2wi
It looks to be down now, but I have been experimenting at home (presets not
working right now) using a Panasonic AW-HE38 and restreamer.
https://vk2eva.com/webcam/
This is definitely something I want to use N44 for
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 1:57 PM William Franzin via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the VA4WAN
network for about 10
years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at
100mbit to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet
for nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware
hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly
alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally
you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with
ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+
away along with DMR audio mixed in.
https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
--
Regards,
Lewys Martin | VK2EVA
https://lewys.eu/ https://vk2eva.com/
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly
Echolink conferences and
proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from
ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward
involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for
the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted
or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
2:33 p.m.
We mostly have Hikvision IP cameras in use now. There's around 30 tower
sites and a box of cameras to install. Cameras are setup with private IPs
accessible on the RF Network but not the internet.
At key sites there's a remote Windows PC for remote admin and also being
used with OBS for streaming to YT/FB. That presence on the internet has
helped get people asking about ham radio too.
There's lots of public interest in weather cameras alone and just the jpeg
URL at one site gets about 3M hits a year. A tornado event occured this
summer and it was livestramed as well.
When it comes to asking for access at sites, local governments or other
organizations see value in the IP cameras we operate as well as IP phones
for emergency comms backup.
William VE4VR
On Wed, Sept 27, 2023, 12:30 a.m. Lewys Martin <countparadox(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
What camera are you running the livestream through? Is
it an IP Camera ?
I was toying with this idea for a while ever since I saw that ARNSW has
(had) a pole mounted camera facing the city...
https://arnsw.org.au/live2wi
It looks to be down now, but I have been experimenting at home (presets
not working right now) using a Panasonic AW-HE38 and restreamer.
https://vk2eva.com/webcam/
This is definitely something I want to use N44 for
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 1:57 PM William Franzin via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Here in Winnipeg Canada we've operated the
VA4WAN network for about 10
years now using ARDC addresses and BGP.
We operate a microwave network that covers about 300km of ground at
100mbit to 1gbit speeds. That network provides intranet and global internet
for nearly all amateur radio around here.
We also operate from Air Canada's data center site with BGP and VMware
hosting anything for hams globally. HamPi gets TBs of downloads monthly
alone. We host EchoLink and other services such as voice control too.
As long as you're doing things that serve amateur radio and hams globally
you'll get support from ARDC. We've only had great experiences working with
ARDC and happy to help anyone we can.
Here's a YouTube live steam from one of our tower sites - that's 200km+
away along with DMR audio mixed in.
https://www.youtube.com/live/hqai-C_ISKA?si=8v3vm205wM6w6Eub
I think we've done great with putting ham radio into the IP world.
William VE4VR
On Tue, Sept 26, 2023, 10:39 p.m. Tony Langdon via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
--
Regards,
Lewys Martin | VK2EVA
https://lewys.eu/ https://vk2eva.com/
For my BGP routed subnet, my use case is mostly
Echolink conferences and
proxies (easy to utilise a LOT of addresses with proxies! Someone from
ARDC would have to confirm, but all of the use cases you've put forward
involve helping hams or ham radio itself, or providing services to hams.
On 27/9/23 12:02 pm, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service
<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for
the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted
or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
--
73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRLhttp://vkradio.com
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
8:07 a.m.
Hi Matthew,
On 27 Sep 2023, at 03:02, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
ARDC are in the process of clarifying this very questionby way of a formal policy as it
has been a bit ambiguous and open to interpretation.
Currently it is myself who approves BGP requests, so I can answer your questions in the
context of a request for BGP announced address space…
Hosting a radio club website that's accessible
from the public internet, including from non radio amateurs.
Yes, no problem at
all.
Providing general outbound internet access for radio
amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur
radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of accessing HTTPS
/ encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur RF frequencies
(which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions) there is
also the grey area of providing general internet access to third parties.
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an
IRC server for discussing cars, but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and
RF users
If that was your only reason it would be a definite no, so strictly
speaking it wouldn’t be allowed as it is not ham related, but I know folk do add on the
occasional “other” service and as long as it is not doing anyone any harm…
Providing general outbound internet access to servers
and services that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
If these servers are providing ham related services, e.g. hosting ham websites etc,
then of course servers need to update and from non-ham sources, so that would be fine. If
the servers were hosting services unrelated to ham in any way then you should host those
services on a commercial IP.
Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related
server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Perfectly ok.
This is a good prompt to ask for opinions on this subject - as I said at the start, ARDC
are in the process of formalising a policy for acceptable use cases, so if anyone has any
opinions on the subject, please make your thoughts known - it would be useful to have
community input to help shape the policy.
73,
Chris - G1FEF
—
ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net <https://www.ardc.net/>
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
29 Sep
29 Sep
10:54 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 12:07 AM Chris via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
If that was your only reason it would be a definite no, so strictly speaking it wouldn’t
be allowed as it is not ham related, but I know folk do add on the occasional “other”
service and as long as it is not doing anyone any harm…
I feel like this one is no different than hams rag-chewing about cars.
Which seems totally reasonable.
But then, like most of these, what is and isn't going to be acceptable
on the ham bands (in a particular country) and what is and isn't going
to be acceptable to the holders of the 44-net address space may not
entirely overlap.
My guess is that there will be plenty of things that you can use
44-net space for, but not on the ham bands in certain countries. But
hopefully no cases where there's something permissible on the ham band
that is prevented by the 44-net AUP.
Matthew Kaufman
27 Sep
27 Sep
9:29 a.m.
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your
station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including
from non radio amateurs.
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether
its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
* Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to
pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other
radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
9:36 a.m.
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume
blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can
you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the
‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you
to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs
via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
9:54 a.m.
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for
purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what
basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’
limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> > wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your
station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including
from non radio amateurs.
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether
its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
* Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to
pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other
radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
10:11 a.m.
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
> * Providing general outbound internet access for
radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the
allocated
amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of
accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over
amateur RF
frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to
licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general
internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence
does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access
to
Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some
broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't
consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the
source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired /
wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the
underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an
aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with
Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume
blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can
you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the
‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you
to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs
via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
10:22 a.m.
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to encrypted
services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip
encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just
fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything
that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access
to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a
completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
> * Providing general outbound internet access
for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the
allocated
amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue
of accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported
over amateur RF
frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to
licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general
internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK
licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound
internet access to
Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some
broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't
consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the
source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired /
wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the
underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an
aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with
Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume
blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can
you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the
‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you
to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs
via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted
or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
28 Sep
28 Sep
3:37 a.m.
In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio regulations aren't to be
mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two separate things.
The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries what
is permitted and what is not by their regulators.
The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or
advise about radio regulations can be done outside of this list.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent
access to encrypted
services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip
encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just
fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing
anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited access
to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a
completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net, <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
> * Providing general outbound internet access
for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the
allocated
amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue
of accessing HTTPS /
encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported
over amateur RF
frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to
licence restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general
internet access to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK
licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound
internet access to
Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some
broad questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't
consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the
source IP for general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired /
wireless Ethernet operating outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the
underlying network is provided by a landlord and NAT or an
aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with
Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume
blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can
you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the
‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit
you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to
Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service
<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted
or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
12:11 p.m.
Maybe an AUP that is clearly written is needed.
On 9/27/2023 10:37 PM, Steve L via 44net wrote:
In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio
regulations aren't to be
mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two separate things.
The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries
what is permitted and what is not by their regulators.
The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or
advise about radio regulations can be done outside of this list.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to
encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy
to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would
work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing
anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited
access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things
in a completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net,
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
--
Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV
NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.
44net Coordinator - Northeast USA
NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM
on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32
"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls
topped
by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan
"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." - Tacitus
"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying
(The work praises the man.)
"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it
provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan
> * Providing general outbound internet access
for radio
amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating
on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of
accessing
HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data
transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be
permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions)
there is also the grey area of providing general internet access
to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK
licence does
not permit you to use your station to provide general
outbound
internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to
ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's
acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used
as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio
shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the
amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided
by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Tom,____
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate
only with Amateurs____
Dave____
__ __
*From:*Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service____
__ __
Hi Dave____
__ __
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption
aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless
of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis
you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the
purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?____
__ __
Cheers____
Tom____
__ __
__ __
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
wrote:____
Matthew,____
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence
does not permit you to use your station to provide
general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.____
Dave____
G4UGM____
____
____
____
*From:*Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service____
____
Hi all,____
The Terms of Service
<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
/"Your license permits You to use certain addresses
exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio
communications and experimentation, or other special
uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with
examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that
I'm curious if they're permitted or not:____
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from
the public internet, including from non radio
amateurs.____
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio
amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or
WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio
frequencies____
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as
an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's /only
/reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users____
* Providing general outbound internet access to
servers and services that might need to pull
software updates from non-radio amateur servers. ____
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related
server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur
related servers /outside/ of 44net____
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP____
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to
44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>____
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
3:02 p.m.
This is in progress as we speak, currently I believe it is with the lawyers, so I would
expect it to go before the board for approval fairly soon.
73,
Chris - G1FEF
—
ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net
On 28 Sep 2023, at 12:11, Charles Hargrove via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Maybe an AUP that is clearly written is needed.
On 9/27/2023 10:37 PM, Steve L via 44net wrote:
In my opinion, the issues of applicable radio
regulations aren't to be mixed with the ARDC acceptable use policy. They are two
separate things.
The ARDC is not in a position to advise hams in the various countries what is permitted
and what is not by their regulators.
The use policy concerns use of the loaned address space. Bickering or advise about radio
regulations can be done outside of this list.
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 4:23 AM Peter Hannay via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent access to
encrypted services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy
to strip encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would
work just fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing
anything that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to provide some limited
access to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things
in a completely above board manner.
Cheers
Peter VK6HAX
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023, 5:12 pm Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net,
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
--
Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV
NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.
44net Coordinator - Northeast USA
NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM
on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32
"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped
by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan
"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." - Tacitus
"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying
(The work praises the man.)
"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it
provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org > * Providing general outbound internet access
for radio
amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating
on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of
accessing
HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data
transported over amateur RF frequencies (which would not be
permitted in a lot of countries due to licence restrictions)
there is also the grey area of providing general internet access
to third parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK
licence does
not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound
internet access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to
ask some broad questions to get a general feel for what's
acceptable and didn't consider UK license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used
as the source IP for general internet access to a club radio
shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating outside of the
amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided
by a landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Tom,____
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate
only with Amateurs____
Dave____
__ __
*From:*Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service____
__ __
Hi Dave____
__ __
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption
aside (assume blocked for purposes of question, regardless
of technical feasibility) can you share please on what basis
you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the
purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?____
__ __
Cheers____
Tom____
__ __
__ __
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
wrote:____
Matthew,____
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence
does not permit you to use your station to provide
general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.____
Dave____
G4UGM____
____
____
____
*From:*Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service____
____
Hi all,____
The Terms of Service
<https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
/"Your license permits You to use certain addresses
exclusively for the purpose of Amateur Radio
communications and experimentation, or other special
uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"/
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with
examples of acceptable use cases? A few examples that
I'm curious if they're permitted or not:____
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from
the public internet, including from non radio
amateurs.____
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio
amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or
WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio
frequencies____
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as
an IRC server for discussing cars, but it's /only
/reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users____
* Providing general outbound internet access to
servers and services that might need to pull
software updates from non-radio amateur servers. ____
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related
server such as a DMR Master, to other radio amateur
related servers /outside/ of 44net____
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP____
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to
44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>____
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
_______________________________________________
44net mailing list -- 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
_______________________________________________
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<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net-leave@mailman.ampr.org>
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To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org 
29 Sep
29 Sep
3:11 a.m.
On 2023-09-27 17:22:47 (+0800), Peter Hannay via 44net wrote:
In relation to general internet access you prevent
access to encrypted
services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip
encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work
just
fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing
anything
that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
One would hope that amateur RF users understand that there is no
expectation of privacy on amateur RF bands. Those users are expected to
be licensed and understand the conditions of their licence.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm planning to
provide some limited
access
to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a
completely above board manner.
Please do report on how well this ends up working. I've been thinking
of setting this up too.
With a lot of the public internet becoming end-to-end encrypted, I would
expect to see transparent proxies struggle to decrypt everything.
Additionally, some jurisdictions also require at least periodic
transmission of the operator's callsign. Ideally, this would be done by
the client (e.g. by adding an X-HAM-OPERATOR: header to HTTP traffic),
but doing it in a proxy may be easier. Food for thought!
Philip VR2WTZ
--
Philip Paeps
Senior Reality Engineer
Alternative Enterprises
9:45 p.m.
Re:
some jurisdictions also require at least periodic
transmission of the operator's callsign.
Ongoing debate about whether the wifi SSID fulfills this sufficiently for the FCC
requirement...
Cliff K6CLS CM87
On September 28, 2023 7:11:31 PM PDT, Philip Paeps via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
On 2023-09-27 17:22:47 (+0800), Peter Hannay via 44net
wrote:
In relation to general internet access you
prevent access to encrypted
services via traffic inspection or use a transparent proxy to strip
encryption upstream before it hits the radio link.
Some sites would break if they use HSTS, but many services would work just
fine.
You'd want to make sure users understand this though, as accessing anything
that requires a login would be a terrible idea.
One would hope that amateur RF users understand that there is no expectation of privacy on
amateur RF bands. Those users are expected to be licensed and understand the conditions
of their licence.
Just some thoughts I've had as I'm
planning to provide some limited access
to the internet via RF and want to make sure I'm doing things in a
completely above board manner.
Please do report on how well this ends up working. I've been thinking of setting this
up too.
With a lot of the public internet becoming end-to-end encrypted, I would expect to see
transparent proxies struggle to decrypt everything. Additionally, some jurisdictions also
require at least periodic transmission of the operator's callsign. Ideally, this
would be done by the client (e.g. by adding an X-HAM-OPERATOR: header to HTTP traffic),
but doing it in a proxy may be easier. Food for thought!
Philip VR2WTZ
--
Philip Paeps
Senior Reality Engineer
Alternative Enterprises
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30 Sep
30 Sep
12:15 a.m.
I would think if the SSID is public (not hidden) it is reasonable to say
that the transmission has been identified for the access point, however
that may not be true for the client. It is simple enough to create an ID
program that fires off a UDP packet with identification information in the
clear on a periodic basis.
On Fri, Sep 29, 2023 at 1:45 PM Cliff Sojourner via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Re:
John D. Hays
Kingston, WA
K7VE / WRJT-215
some jurisdictions also require at least periodic
transmission of the
operator's callsign.
Ongoing debate about whether the wifi SSID fulfills this sufficiently for
the FCC requirement...
Cliff K6CLS CM87
>
> -- 
27 Sep
27 Sep
10:41 a.m.
On 27 Sep 2023, at 10:11, Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
In this case, as it is to provide an amateur radio club with a ham related service
(assuming club members would use it generally for ham purposes of course) then I see no
issue with that. The only caveat is that, as the named person on the LOA, you remain
responsible for how the IPs are used, so you would want to protect yourself by ensuring
there was a decent firewall in place and that club members adhere to agreed terms of use.
That being said, if this is *just* to bypass a draconian ISP and provide general internet
access for your club, i.e. browsing the www etc, then it would be a terrible waste of IP
address space as you could achieve the same result with a Vultr VM and tunnel from your
club to the VM over a VPN link and NAT the VM’s single public IP. You don’t need 44net
address space to do that.
73,
Chris - G1FEF
> * Providing general outbound internet access
for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue
of accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over
amateur RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence
restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third
parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK
licence does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet
access to Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad
questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK
license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for
general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating
outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a
landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for
purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what
basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’
limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your
station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including
from non radio amateurs.
Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether
its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to
pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other
radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
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12:19 p.m.
Matthew,
Why should you be sorry. It’s a good question. Much information on the net is US based and
these do allow third part traffic, but the UK rules have always been very specific that
“Amateur Radio” is for “Amateurs” and not for commercial use. How could you ensure that
providing general internet access was not used for commercial use. If you were allowed
third party traffic you would also have problems with the clauses on “offensive language”.
My copy of the “Guidance Notes” says at 2.84:-
“This may mean that the licensee must implement monitoring or other checks in order to
take reasonable steps to ensure compliance with the Licence or to remedy any breaches that
emerge.”
Even to have a BBS you need an NOV which seems crazy as its all Amateur traffic…
https://ukrepeater.net/forms_central.html
.. see the BBS form…….
… perhaps I should have commented on the recent consultation that we should relax the
rules on Packet radio, but I didn’t
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) <44net(a)marrold.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 10:12 AM
To: dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com
Cc: Tom M0LTE <tom(a)m0lte.uk>uk>; 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
Subject: Re: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
Thanks for the speedy responses, very helpful.
> * Providing general outbound internet access for
radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
Not a good idea - apart from the obvious issue of
accessing HTTPS / encrypted sites then having that encrypted data transported over amateur
RF frequencies (which would not be permitted in a lot of countries due to licence
restrictions) there is also the grey area of providing general internet access to third
parties.
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence
does not permit you to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to
Amateurs via RF
Yes I didn't really think that one though sorry. I was trying to ask some broad
questions to get a general feel for what's acceptable and didn't consider UK
license conditions.
Slightly different tack in that case, could 44net space be used as the source IP for
general internet access to a club radio shack, over wired / wireless Ethernet operating
outside of the amateur bands? Let's assume the underlying network is provided by a
landlord and NAT or an aggressive firewall is causing issues.
Thanks
Matthew
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 9:54 AM dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> > wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with Amateurs
Dave
From: Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume blocked for
purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can you share please on what
basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the ‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’
limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> > wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you to use your
station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
From: Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
To: 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org <mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>
Subject: [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
* Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including
from non radio amateurs.
* Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether
its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
* Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
* Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to
pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
* Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other
radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
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10:19 a.m.
Hi Dave
I interpret this differently to you, and have responded off-list to your
extended message.
Kind regards
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sept 2023 at 09:54, <dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,
No third party traffic on UK licences. You can communicate only with
Amateurs
Dave
*From:* Tom M0LTE via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 9:37 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Re: Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi Dave
I have no skin in the game, but I am curious- encryption aside (assume
blocked for purposes of question, regardless of technical feasibility) can
you share please on what basis you reach that conclusion? Purely on the
‘encryption for the purpose of obscuration’ limitation in the licence?
Cheers
Tom
On Wed, 27 Sep 2023 at 09:30, dave.g4ugm--- via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Matthew,
Regardless of what the ARDC rules are your UK licence does not permit you
to use your station to provide general outbound internet access to Amateurs
via RF.
Dave
G4UGM
*From:* Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 27, 2023 3:02 AM
*To:* 44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
*Subject:* [44net] Clarification on Terms of Service
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to 44net-leave(a)mailman.ampr.org
4:12 p.m.
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
*Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and
nowhere in my license conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to
modify this statement to something like "possesition of a amateur radio
licence permits You to ....."*
*Mark G7LTT/NI2O*
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable
use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
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6:36 p.m.
In this case, as it is to provide an amateur radio club with a ham related
service (assuming club members would use it generally for ham purposes of
course) then I see no issue with that. The only caveat is that, as the
named person on the LOA, you remain responsible for how the IPs are used,
so you would want to protect yourself by ensuring there was a decent
firewall in place and that club members adhere to agreed terms of use.
That being said, if this is *just* to bypass a
draconian ISP and provide
general internet access for your club, i.e. browsing the www etc, then it
would be a terrible waste of IP address space as you could achieve the same
result with a Vultr VM and tunnel from your club to the VM over a VPN link
and NAT the VM’s single public IP. You don’t need 44net address space to do
that.
Hi Chris,
Yes that all makes sense, thanks for clarifying everything.
Thanks
Matthew
2E0SIP
On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 6:18 PM Geoff Joy via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
wrote:
The “license” being referred to in that section is the
ARDC license to use
the IP addresses assigned to the Ham for use under the TOS, not to the
Amateur radio license assigned to him by his country.
Perhaps a better phrasing might be “…by ARDC within the limits allowed by
the class of Ham license of the assignee and applicable regulations.”
This is a TOS that assumed applicable laws already prevail and the
contract is between ARDC and the assignee and it doesn’t presume to
describe the obligations of the assignee under his country’s laws and
regulations.
Ultimately, it is not incumbent upon ARDC to provide advice or examples of
acceptable use because it is the responsibility of the Ham license holder
to know and inform himself of the regulations applicable to him under the
terms he accepted when obtaining his amateur radio license.
-KE6QH-
On Sep 27, 2023, at 08:12, Mark Phillips via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org>
wrote:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the
purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
*Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and
nowhere in my license conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to
modify this statement to something like "possesition of a amateur radio
licence permits You to ....."*
*Mark G7LTT/NI2O*
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <
44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/>
states:
*"**Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for
the purpose of Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other
special uses as may be agreed to by ARDC"*
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of
acceptable use cases? A few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted
or not:
- Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public
internet, including from non radio amateurs.
- Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs
connecting via RF, whether its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated
amateur radio frequencies
- Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server
for discussing cars, but it's *only *reachable from other 44net
addresses and RF users
- Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services
that might need to pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
- Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a
DMR Master, to other radio amateur related servers *outside* of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
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7:57 p.m.
“license” in this context means the license that ARDC grant you to borrow their IP
addresses, in the case of BGP address space this is the LOA
Chris - G1FEF
On 27 Sep 2023, at 16:12, Mark Phillips via 44net
<44net(a)mailman.ampr.org> wrote:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
Erm .... no it does not. I hold licenses in both the US and UK and nowhere in my license
conditions does it say this. I think ARDC needs to modify this statement to something like
"possesition of a amateur radio licence permits You to ....."
Mark G7LTT/NI2O
On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 10:55 PM Matthew H (2E0SIP) via 44net <44net(a)mailman.ampr.org
<mailto:44net@mailman.ampr.org>> wrote:
Chris - G1FEF
—
ARDC Administrator
Web: https://www.ardc.net
Hi all,
The Terms of Service <https://www.ardc.net/about/legal/terms-of-service/> states:
"Your license permits You to use certain addresses exclusively for the purpose of
Amateur Radio communications and experimentation, or other special uses as may be agreed
to by ARDC"
I was wondering if this was clarified anywhere with examples of acceptable use cases? A
few examples that I'm curious if they're permitted or not:
Hosting a radio club website that's accessible from the public internet, including
from non radio amateurs.
Providing general outbound internet access for radio amateurs connecting via RF, whether
its AX.25 or WiFi operating on the allocated amateur radio frequencies
Hosting not strictly amateur radio services such as an IRC server for discussing cars,
but it's only reachable from other 44net addresses and RF users
Providing general outbound internet access to servers and services that might need to
pull software updates from non-radio amateur servers.
Providing connectivity to a radio amateur related server such as a DMR Master, to other
radio amateur related servers outside of 44net
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Matthew
2E0SIP
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222
days inactive
225
days old
26 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Charles Hargrove -
Chris -
Cliff Sojourner -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
Geoff Joy -
Jeff Parrish-Personal -
John D. Hays -
Lewys Martin -
Mark Phillips -
Matthew H (2E0SIP) -
Matthew Kaufman -
Peter Hannay -
Philip Paeps -
Steve L -
Tom M0LTE -
Tony Langdon -
William Franzin